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Helpful ReplyPro hormones with good gains to sides ratio

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strong_man
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2014/11/03 11:27:21 (permalink)

Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio

Hi guys,
 
I am preparing to decide on a new PH cycle and having done SD and m-dien I did not like the lethargy and general moodiness that I felt while on that stuff.
 
When I do a 500-750 mg test cycle a week I feel so happy and relaxed although PH has an impact on my general mood and always feeling tired.
 
What would you advise as a good alternative that is not DHT based?
#1
Uriel
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 11:49:06 (permalink)
Why not DHT based? Those are usually the ones with the best sides/gains ratio.
 
Designers in general tend to be powerful and harsh, so you'd have to look at the milder ones like epistane or halodrol.
 
If you use test, I assume you can get stuff like anavar, winstrol or tbol. Those are low on sides too.
 
Of course none of them will give you gains quite like SD though.
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KS_Manchester
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 11:59:29 (permalink)
Halo. Zero sides.

Which must equate to being high on the list of gains:sides ratio? ??

If you want strong gains, Mdien+Nolva for low sides??

K
#3
Uriel
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 12:16:39 (permalink)
I don't see nolva doing much for mdien sides.
 
In fact, I don't know much that can be done for 19-nor sides at all. People throw AIs and dopamine agonists at them but the truth is those won't make much difference either way, if you can tolerate them you can run them without any support meds at all and if you can't no amount of support meds will make them bearable.
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KS_Manchester
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 12:20:47 (permalink)
Mdien sides are progestin. It can only cause probs if estrogen can take effect. So either an AI to reduce estro, or nolva to block estro at the receptor.

Or, p5p to help reduce progestin. There are other meds that work with l-dopa etc.

K
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Uriel
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 12:29:00 (permalink)
KS_Manchester
Mdien sides are progestin. It can only cause probs if estrogen can take effect.

That only seems to apply to gyno, and even there the "-ienes" family of steroids seems to be capable of causing it even in the absence of estrogen (it does for me).
 
And even if estrogen was needed to cause sides, nolva doesn't bind to estrogen receptors everywhere. If it did it wouldn't much of a selective estrogen receptor modulator would it? As an antagonist to estrogen, nolva mostly just works on breast tissue (that's what it was invented for). It has the "side effect" of also doing it on the hypothalamus and pituitary (why we use it for PCT), but we can't say it'll work the same on every tissue (especially since it's also known that for example in bone tissue it has the opposite effect - it's an estrogen agonist). Nolva doesn't do much to stop estrogen bloat for example, so clearly it doesn't work on skin and body fat. If you want full blockage of estrogen your only option is an AI. And when you're on something that doesn't bind to the aromatase enzyme at all (like mdien), an AI won't do anything either. With 19-nors you're pretty much on your own.
post edited by Uriel - 2014/11/03 12:31:17
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KS_Manchester
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 13:26:15 (permalink)
I was only talking with regards to Gyno (being aware Nolva is Selective)

Interesting the ienes compounds can cause gyno even without estrogen. M4ohn was a 19nor but it was modified to prevent conversion to be a worry for progestin.

Aware an AI is a good approach to reduce estrogen, but as you say, if estrogen isn't needed for mdien to cause problems, the best defense us prob around blocking/limiting progestin then directly. Few natural and chemical products that can do that.

fair comments.

k
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EDBANGER
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 14:38:44 (permalink)
I didn't think M-dien armoatised therefore wouldn't an AI be pointless.  Would it be better to have something to help control prolactin and progeterone levels such as Mucuna Pruriens + B6 or what I was considering using next time, Prolactrone from JW.  Definitely a longer PCT using Nolva (6 weeks minimum) is necessary.  I was even considering starting with some clomid and then swapping over to Nolva to finish.

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KS_Manchester
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 15:41:29 (permalink)
EDBANGER
I didn't think M-dien armoatised therefore wouldn't an AI be pointless.  Would it be better to have something to help control prolactin and progeterone levels such as Mucuna Pruriens + B6 or what I was considering using next time, Prolactrone from JW.  Definitely a longer PCT using Nolva (6 weeks minimum) is necessary.  I was even considering starting with some clomid and then swapping over to Nolva to finish.


Prolactin can only take effect in the presence of estrogen.
I get your point though.

K
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Uriel
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 16:18:42 (permalink)
KS_Manchester
EDBANGER
I didn't think M-dien armoatised therefore wouldn't an AI be pointless.  Would it be better to have something to help control prolactin and progeterone levels such as Mucuna Pruriens + B6 or what I was considering using next time, Prolactrone from JW.  Definitely a longer PCT using Nolva (6 weeks minimum) is necessary.  I was even considering starting with some clomid and then swapping over to Nolva to finish.


Prolactin can only take effect in the presence of estrogen.
I get your point though.

K

...in regards to gyno (and supposedly).
 
I'm insisting on this because prolactin can cause other unrelated negative side effects that people don't take into account. For example prolactin has a great impact on sexual response. It acts as an inhibitor of sorts, the more prolactin the longer it takes to achieve orgasm and too much prolactin can keep it from happening altogether as well as causing erectile dysfunction. But too little prolactin is not much better, and can cause premature ejaculation. It's something that needs to be kept within a reasonable range, not too much and not too little. And this is just one example, like anabolic steroids prolactin has a long list of effects in the human body. Development of breast tissue is just the tip of the iceberg.
 
And it's not really known if the side effects associated with this family of steroids is really prolactin mediated. Some are known to raise prolactin but I've never seen blood tests showing it that high, and a lot of people use dopamine agonists to lower it, and the blood test shows prolactin is actually low, and they're still getting sides.
 
Our endocrine system is very complicated and we shouldn't even pretend to fully understand it, let alone reduce the problem to a handful of hormones we know of when in reality there are hundreds or thousands interacting and all playing some part.
post edited by Uriel - 2014/11/03 16:23:13
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Hispano
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 16:47:44 (permalink)
Im curious
How many test (not oral) is equal to M1T (oral)
I mean how many mg test are equal to this oral PH (Mehtyl-1-testosterone)
 
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DaveW3000
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 17:23:08 (permalink)
Hispano
Im curious
How many test (not oral) is equal to M1T (oral)
I mean how many mg test are equal to this oral PH (Mehtyl-1-testosterone)
 


Don't think it works that way mate, M1T isn't oral Test.
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Hispano
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 17:27:36 (permalink)
I thought it was by the name..not an expert here of Ph´s :D
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DaveW3000
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 17:29:58 (permalink)
Hispano
I thought it was by the name..not an expert here of Ph´s :D


lol me neither, but M1T is methylated 1- testosterone.
 
Someone else will likely be able to give you a more comprehensive answer.
 
Simon....... :) 
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KS_Manchester
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 17:45:32 (permalink)
1 testosterone is not testosterone.

1-test doesn't aromatise for a start.

Ignoring oral vs intro, mg for mg i suspect 1-test is more potent based on the mg dose. E.g. 500mg vs 8mg

K
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Hispano
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 17:53:12 (permalink)
Ok thank you guys
i thought it was testosterone but just methylated for a better oral bioavalaible
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Uriel
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 17:55:21 (permalink)☄ Helpfulby DaveW3000 2014/11/03 18:03:37
Different steroids, M1T is not just a different form of test. The "test" part in the name just stuck because it has a 1-2 double bond while testosterone has a 4-5 double bond (1, 2, 4 and 5 is the place of the carbon atoms in the molecule's structure).
 
Technically 1-testosterone is the 5-alpha reduced form of boldenone (it's to boldenone what DHT is to testosterone), and methyl-1-testosterone is just the 17-alpha alkylated form of that for higher oral availability (at least that was the idea, but we now know that the 17aa tends to increase a steroid's potency dramatically by making it much more resistant to breakdown and lasting much longer in the bloodstream).
 
In terms of equivalence there were a lot of studies in the 40s and 50s into this, and what they did was basically give rats a fixed dose of each steroid and then dissect them and weight their levator ani muscle to compare the anabolic effect (other organs like the seminal vesicles were used to compare the androgenic effect). Off the top of my head I think M1T is about 9x as anabolic as methyltestosterone (they compared orals with orals, injectables with injectables, with estered testosterone as the standard for injectables and methyltestosterone as the basis for orals, the two being roughly the same mg/mg in both anabolic and androgenic effect).
 
But that's just in regards to the levator ani muscle in rats. In human pecs or biceps, by most accounts M1T is quite a bit more than 9x as potent as testosterone. 1250mg of testosterone do not give you as fast muscle or strength gains as 20mg of M1T a day.
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Ancalagon
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 21:12:30 (permalink)
KS_Manchester
EDBANGER
I didn't think M-dien armoatised therefore wouldn't an AI be pointless.  Would it be better to have something to help control prolactin and progeterone levels such as Mucuna Pruriens + B6 or what I was considering using next time, Prolactrone from JW.  Definitely a longer PCT using Nolva (6 weeks minimum) is necessary.  I was even considering starting with some clomid and then swapping over to Nolva to finish.


Prolactin can only take effect in the presence of estrogen.
I get your point though.

K



What is the point of mucuna puriens? Mucuna puriens is levodopa, an intermediary between l-tyrosine and dopamine, the neurotransmitter. What does that have to do with prolactin or progesterone?
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EDBANGER
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 21:23:39 (permalink)
From what I've read and been advised.  Mucuna puriens increases dopamine levels which helps to control Prolactin and progesterone levels.
 
A lot of the scientific stuff goes over my head so I'm not the person to try and hold a debate with.  A quick google search throws up this research that you may find interesting?  http://examine.com/supplements/Mucuna+pruriens/#summary3-1
 
Once you've digested that I'd be interested in whether you agree or disagree. 

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simonboyle
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Re: Pro hormones with good gains to sides ratio 2014/11/03 22:54:00 (permalink)
Uriel
Different steroids, M1T is not just a different form of test. The "test" part in the name just stuck because it has a 1-2 double bond while testosterone has a 4-5 double bond (1, 2, 4 and 5 is the place of the carbon atoms in the molecule's structure).
 
Technically 1-testosterone is the 5-alpha reduced form of boldenone (it's to boldenone what DHT is to testosterone), and methyl-1-testosterone is just the 17-alpha alkylated form of that for higher oral availability (at least that was the idea, but we now know that the 17aa tends to increase a steroid's potency dramatically by making it much more resistant to breakdown and lasting much longer in the bloodstream).
 
In terms of equivalence there were a lot of studies in the 40s and 50s into this, and what they did was basically give rats a fixed dose of each steroid and then dissect them and weight their levator ani muscle to compare the anabolic effect (other organs like the seminal vesicles were used to compare the androgenic effect). Off the top of my head I think M1T is about 9x as anabolic as methyltestosterone (they compared orals with orals, injectables with injectables, with estered testosterone as the standard for injectables and methyltestosterone as the basis for orals, the two being roughly the same mg/mg in both anabolic and androgenic effect).
 
But that's just in regards to the levator ani muscle in rats. In human pecs or biceps, by most accounts M1T is quite a bit more than 9x as potent as testosterone. 1250mg of testosterone do not give you as fast muscle or strength gains as 20mg of M1T a day.


This.
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