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Rotation Excercises...

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theITman
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2011/03/14 23:07:04 (permalink)

Rotation Excercises...

No one mentions it in any workout plans and its never discussed, im not talking about twisting crunches but maybe things like wood chops with cables. I seem push pull routines all the time but this surely completely neglects the rotational plane the body can work in..
 
To take it back to old old times an example would be a caveman throwing a spear, yes we dont do this anymore but its still functional, or in modern day would be boxing, all the power is generated from a rotation at the hip.
 
I know people arent always boxers or cavemen, but training is about more than being big, it should be about making the body functional, and balanced, as well as big and strong.
 
So my question is really, why is it neglected so much, what other excercises can be done if any, or does it not matter?
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    SecondRow
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/14 23:25:48 (permalink)
    You're right in that a lot of people seem to neglect this movement ; try holding yourself up on a chin bar, pulling your knees up above your hips and rotating your legs from side to side. Also a press up position with hands on two medicine balls, take one hand off and rotate to the side so that your arm is pointing up to the ceiling.

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    theITman
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/14 23:28:34 (permalink)
    Nice i like the second one as i guess your core gets  good hammering to trying to maintain balance, i always go with wood choppers as its the only one i know so thanks for that.

    I would just like to see more routines encorporate these kind of excercises, especially for begininers, neglecting a way that your body is designed for not only seems pointless, but a sure course to imbalances and injuries.
    post edited by theITman - 2011/03/14 23:29:48
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    SecondRow
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/14 23:33:49 (permalink)
    also you can get an oly bar, put 10kg ish or so on each side, and just turn your torso so that the bar points in front of you, do that back and forth. the momentum of the weight gives you a good workout. Will probably add a few yards to your tee shot as well!

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    Ak_88
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 06:51:24 (permalink)
    SecondRow

    You're right in that a lot of people seem to neglect this movement ; try holding yourself up on a chin bar, pulling your knees up above your hips and rotating your legs from side to side. 



    That sounds like lateral flexion more than rotation.
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    Rachfit
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 08:57:55 (permalink)
    Also a press up position with hands on two medicine balls, take one hand off and rotate to the side so that your arm is pointing up to the ceiling.
     
    Sounds like there is no rotation at the waist for this one?



    "If you cant explain it simply, you dont understand it well enough" Albert Einstein
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    theITman
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 09:46:34 (permalink)
    Had a memory flash and twisting lunges with a medicine ball was another one i have used...

    Rach, any more thoughts on this in general?
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    GT_PT
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 10:27:29 (permalink)
    Had a memory flash and twisting lunges with a medicine ball was another one i have used...

    Rach, any more thoughts on this in general?


    Great exercise for glute activation.
     
    Rotational movements are great but initially make sure that you have no imbalances, or if you have address them first due to the effects of rotational forces on the facet joints in your spine.
     
    If you're talking about the transverse plane of motion and relating it to push pull exercises, then you can actually count the Lat pulldown as working in this plane if your on a 45 degree lean back.
     
    GT

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    Rachfit
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 11:21:22 (permalink)
    theITman

    Had a memory flash and twisting lunges with a medicine ball was another one i have used...

    Rach, any more thoughts on this in general?


    Yep lots!! :)
     
    What is most important is the question of 'what do I want to achieve?' Without this then exercise choice is pretty random.
    Next the question is 'how do I achieve that?'
     
    So I am going to make an assumption from your OP that you are considering general all round strength and control-but please do correct me if I am wrong here!
     
    When we think about exercise choice there are so many variables, how should we consider the specificity of them?
    Firstly and most importantly (and often missing) is the preparation for exercise.
    So are you stacked up correctly on the inside? Is the movement and functionality of your intrinsic biomechanics ready for this type of movement/exercise?
     
    If your pelvis is level and functioning, if your nerves are mobile, if you have no muscle spasm, if you have no joint stiffness and rotation work is specific to what you want to achieve then some of the moves mentioned above might be considered.
     
    However it is very common for people to have some of these dysfunctions and not even know it. So that when they try these funky core, cable, rotation type moves what they are actually doing is wearing away their facet joints which greatly increases the risk of disc problems. We have done research to prove this along with a guy called McGill who has a book out called 'Ultimate back fitness & performance' which you migh find interesting.
     
    So going back to your OP, millions of years ago we were built for those tasks and designed to throw spears, squat, pick berries and fight sabre toothed tigers. However now after 100 years of sitting as desks and in cars we are not. We have gained these mechanical issues that create so much low back pain, shoulder problems and knee issues when we try to be active upon them.
     
    If you want a strong core then make sure you have the capacity to engage ALL the core muscles properly first, (i.e.get rid of the muscle spasm for example) then challenge it by moving other body parts instead of placing undue risk on the facet joints.
    Your trunk will be challenged as it needs to by the daily activities you perform. So if that is high intensity then your training should reflect that, if not then it doesnt need to.
     
    Hope this all makes sense!
    post edited by Rachfit - 2011/03/15 11:25:07

    "If you cant explain it simply, you dont understand it well enough" Albert Einstein
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    SecondRow
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 12:52:11 (permalink)
    Rachfit

    Also a press up position with hands on two medicine balls, take one hand off and rotate to the side so that your arm is pointing up to the ceiling.
     
    Sounds like there is no rotation at the waist for this one?





    your feet both stay planted on the floor, so if it's not your waist that's turning I'm not sure how I'm doing it...!

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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 12:58:24 (permalink)
    Ak_88

    SecondRow

    You're right in that a lot of people seem to neglect this movement ; try holding yourself up on a chin bar, pulling your knees up above your hips and rotating your legs from side to side. 



    That sounds like lateral flexion more than rotation.



    The exercise is referred to anywhere I'm seen it as bent knee leg raise & rotation, not bent knee leg raise and lateral flexion, but I'm not a biologist.

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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 13:05:14 (permalink)
    SecondRow

    Rachfit

    Also a press up position with hands on two medicine balls, take one hand off and rotate to the side so that your arm is pointing up to the ceiling.
     
    Sounds like there is no rotation at the waist for this one?





    your feet both stay planted on the floor, so if it's not your waist that's turning I'm not sure how I'm doing it...!


    Wow thats a very risky exercise then buddy! Your knees and/or spine would be at great risk if it is the way you are describing!

    "If you cant explain it simply, you dont understand it well enough" Albert Einstein
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 13:10:23 (permalink)
    maybe I'm describing it wrong, it's not dangerous at all imo and I'm far from the only person that does it. There's no load or torsion at all through the knees, for one thing.

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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 15:01:08 (permalink)
    SecondRow

    maybe I'm describing it wrong, it's not dangerous at all imo and I'm far from the only person that does it. There's no load or torsion at all through the knees, for one thing.


    It is difficult to imagine in posts sometimes I can appreciate that.
    So are you saying that starting in a push up position, each hand on a seperate medicine ball, you then turn from the waist and above only to a crucifix position with the arms. One hand pointing to the ceiling and one still on a ball, while at the same time you keep both feet on the toes on the floor?

    "If you cant explain it simply, you dont understand it well enough" Albert Einstein
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 15:47:03 (permalink)
    that would be it, although I've seen people doing it off one ball also. And off the floor of course. Perhaps it's not a rotation thing, I just associate it with rotation because it feels like it's hitting the same muscles

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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 16:00:15 (permalink)
    SecondRow

    that would be it, although I've seen people doing it off one ball also. And off the floor of course. Perhaps it's not a rotation thing, I just associate it with rotation because it feels like it's hitting the same muscles


    Ok I see, there is an exercise I have seen called the santana T press which sounds like this one. I would imagine you would need to pivot on the toes, allowing the side of the feet to touch the floor (if you know what I mean?)  otherwise this would be a very dangerous move for the spine as I mentioned earlier.
     
    I would still question why you would perform a risky move like this if all you are aiming for is core strength? 

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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 16:07:35 (permalink)
    they probably do turn a little bit, but it's definitely more of a core exercise, obviously quite tough on your chest and shoulders as well.

    I didn't ever think that it was risky, to be perfectly honest. It's never given me a problem that I'm aware of.     

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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 18:53:53 (permalink)
    I think if your biomechanics are out, rotational core work is probably one of the worst things to do - its probably better the majority of people neglect it rather than attempt a hash at it.

    After someones alignment, motor control, general techniques (bracing etc..) are covered, starting with basics is key for core work. It shouldnt be about weight, otherwise its pointless as your not using the right muscles. Then work up to anti-rotational (anti lateral flexion too) exercises (pallof press variations, suitcase deadlifts). Then eventually on to landmines, cable lifts, cable chops, then full wood chops. All this over a long period of time progressing in technique and strength (not only the core though).

    Getting to the point of pallof presses described above would probably be more than adequate, unless your work or sports requires specific rotational force - but even then, better served working the opposite (resisting force).
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 19:44:49 (permalink)
    SecondRow

    they probably do turn a little bit, but it's definitely more of a core exercise, obviously quite tough on your chest and shoulders as well.

    I didn't ever think that it was risky, to be perfectly honest. It's never given me a problem that I'm aware of.     


    No most people are not aware of the risks of some exercises and you are lucky to have not experienced any problems so far mate. Maybe you could post a video of your doing the exercise and we could see exactly what it looks like? or consider some other ways to train your core?

    "If you cant explain it simply, you dont understand it well enough" Albert Einstein
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    theITman
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    Re:Rotation Excercises... 2011/03/15 22:08:29 (permalink)
    Rachfit

    theITman

    Had a memory flash and twisting lunges with a medicine ball was another one i have used...

    Rach, any more thoughts on this in general?


    Yep lots!! :)
     
    What is most important is the question of 'what do I want to achieve?' Without this then exercise choice is pretty random.
    Next the question is 'how do I achieve that?'
     
    So I am going to make an assumption from your OP that you are considering general all round strength and control-but please do correct me if I am wrong here!
     
    When we think about exercise choice there are so many variables, how should we consider the specificity of them?
    Firstly and most importantly (and often missing) is the preparation for exercise.
    So are you stacked up correctly on the inside? Is the movement and functionality of your intrinsic biomechanics ready for this type of movement/exercise?
     
    If your pelvis is level and functioning, if your nerves are mobile, if you have no muscle spasm, if you have no joint stiffness and rotation work is specific to what you want to achieve then some of the moves mentioned above might be considered.
     
    However it is very common for people to have some of these dysfunctions and not even know it. So that when they try these funky core, cable, rotation type moves what they are actually doing is wearing away their facet joints which greatly increases the risk of disc problems. We have done research to prove this along with a guy called McGill who has a book out called 'Ultimate back fitness & performance' which you migh find interesting.
     
    So going back to your OP, millions of years ago we were built for those tasks and designed to throw spears, squat, pick berries and fight sabre toothed tigers. However now after 100 years of sitting as desks and in cars we are not. We have gained these mechanical issues that create so much low back pain, shoulder problems and knee issues when we try to be active upon them.
     
    If you want a strong core then make sure you have the capacity to engage ALL the core muscles properly first, (i.e.get rid of the muscle spasm for example) then challenge it by moving other body parts instead of placing undue risk on the facet joints.
    Your trunk will be challenged as it needs to by the daily activities you perform. So if that is high intensity then your training should reflect that, if not then it doesnt need to.
     
    Hope this all makes sense!


    Hey Rach,
     
    Thanks for the reply, I have always trainined for size, but only on the basis that all excercises i do are functional and will / could be benefitial in the real world. i.e lifting a box, squating down.
     
    The muscles when used in the gym are under the most control they will ever be, and having these habbits can only help in the real world to. Its common I will twist maybe to put a box from one place to the other for example, its common i will chop logs or ill kill a saber tooth tiger.... I want to follow those rules as i feel happier knowing im doing what i can to correct imbalances or move away from being a desk junkie. (i work in IT oddly enough).
     
    I defaintely see all the health risks that you discuss, it seems very odd to me that nowadays the human body has actually gone backwards. Its not effectient at completeing alot of tasks, for most people anyway and no one seems to care. Crazy!
     
    Id love to see a biometrics coach one day to actually see what kinda shape my body is in. My knees are ruined, im having suregry next month on them, shoulders arent great either and neither is my back....But with the exception of my knees as this pain is caused by oesetophytes, most of my other joint problems have improved from high intesity functional excercise. my posture has also improved massivley, especially when engaging the hips or glute activation which ever its called...
     
    But anyway its good to see why certain people shouldnt do it, but i think alot of the time its neglected on here because people dont even think about it, rather than because of the health risks.
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