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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/08 11:32:19 (permalink)
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Makes me wish I was still a machinist. I loved having a big workshop to play with! Much better than being stuck at this boring desk lol.

 
1RM's @ BW 90kg:
Squat - 160kg / Bench - 115kg / Deadlift - 210kg / Strict OHP - 77.5kg
 
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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 18:54:32 (permalink)
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doc
yeah ive used none rotating bars before , if they are 10kg they are fine, but when you start getting heavier it natrualy wants to turn and to do that you need to relax your grip , which is difficult when flying as everything is under tension , not a fan at all , those dumbells look pretty good to me, like I said for me persoanlly 40kg and below and the rubber dont seem too cumbersome , 45+ and they start getting too wide or thick . dumbell should pressing the 60kg's with rubber was almost impossible as they where hitting my ears or pulling themselves away from my body , very hard to balance , those dumbells in the vid are excellent if you dont have people dropping them , they need lots of welding tacks and ussualy have bit dropping off in your eyes when chest pressing . 
 
as a rue of thumb for me if i can roll a dumbell along the floor as ster it left/rigth without having to pick it up , then its got enough good rotation to use , if i have to pick it up to change its direction to avoid a plate or bench then ill just use a different weight 




After looking into this further I don't think I'm a proponent of the rotating handle as much as I was. I can't see why it would make any difference on most lifts. I've gone back to this again because you said it was the most important part when buying dumbbells and you wouldn't buy them if they didn't rotate.
 
What lifts are you doing which requires a rotating dumbbell handle? It wouldn't matter with a bench press, row, lunge, most lifts would it.
 
I can see why it would matter with a regular curl as the wrists turn. I can't see how it would matter with a hammer curl though. I can only see clean or snatch, a curl or an explosive lift when the handle wants to rotate. I don't do  
dumbbell flys so that would bother me.
 
 

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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 18:58:36 (permalink)
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Furious D
The two issues I have with rubber dumbbells are that they a lot more cumbersome as they are bigger for a given weight and the rubber catches on clothing during reps more than iron does.

However these issues are minor compared to my main factor in whether I like a Dumbbell which comes down to the handle e.g. conxex or straight, good knurling, thickness, free rotating...
 
 

Also the flatness of the ends is important when resting on thighs. It m
Furious D
If I could afford them and had space I'd get a set of these...
http://www.ivankobarbell.com/products/rmep_15/
I used to belong to a gym that had two sets... The iron ones in lbs and the the rubber coated ones in kg.


uch more comfortable with flat ends than when there is a protruding bolt.



 
This confused me a little. Those are Ivano. They don't have free rotating handles.

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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 19:01:40 (permalink)
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I was in talks with gentleman on this board. Teapot. However things tailed off. I have found a place called Pro-bell on the net. They are very helpful and can make anything. However I think from looking into it more I don't think its required.

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Furious D
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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 19:56:38 (permalink)
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Muscle
Furious D
The two issues I have with rubber dumbbells are that they a lot more cumbersome as they are bigger for a given weight and the rubber catches on clothing during reps more than iron does.

However these issues are minor compared to my main factor in whether I like a Dumbbell which comes down to the handle e.g. conxex or straight, good knurling, thickness, free rotating...
 
Also the flatness of the ends is important when resting on thighs. It m
Furious D
If I could afford them and had space I'd get a set of these...
http://www.ivankobarbell.com/products/rmep_15/
I used to belong to a gym that had two sets... The iron ones in lbs and the the rubber coated ones in kg.


uch more comfortable with flat ends than when there is a protruding bolt.


This confused me a little. Those are Ivano. They don't have free rotating handles.


Confuses me too...

What I think I meant is that whether the handles rotate or not is more important than rubber vs cast iron if you have a particular preference and in general from my experience it is the comfort of the handle that makes the biggest difference to the feel of a dumbbell.

Having said that, the ivanko cast iron ones are nice and compact which is probably because they are not bulked out with rubber coating! If I was buying a set I'd use them as a starting point and try to find something as similar as possible within budget.
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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 20:35:02 (permalink)
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Furious D
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Furious D
The two issues I have with rubber dumbbells are that they a lot more cumbersome as they are bigger for a given weight and the rubber catches on clothing during reps more than iron does.

However these issues are minor compared to my main factor in whether I like a Dumbbell which comes down to the handle e.g. conxex or straight, good knurling, thickness, free rotating...
 
Also the flatness of the ends is important when resting on thighs. It m
Furious D
If I could afford them and had space I'd get a set of these...
http://www.ivankobarbell.com/products/rmep_15/
I used to belong to a gym that had two sets... The iron ones in lbs and the the rubber coated ones in kg.


uch more comfortable with flat ends than when there is a protruding bolt.


This confused me a little. Those are Ivano. They don't have free rotating handles.


Confuses me too...

What I think I meant is that whether the handles rotate or not is more important than rubber vs cast iron if you have a particular preference and in general from my experience it is the comfort of the handle that makes the biggest difference to the feel of a dumbbell.

Having said that, the ivanko cast iron ones are nice and compact which is probably because they are not bulked out with rubber coating! If I was buying a set I'd use them as a starting point and try to find something as similar as possible within budget.



Thanks for getting back to me mate. There is quite a bit to understand with dumbbells. Bushing, bearing, metal on metal, rubber, iron, grip style, straight handle or ego, grip thickness, rotating handle or fixed, welded or thread locked, the size of plates, the length of handle relative to the size of plates, more I forgot off the top of head.
 
I'm still a little confused. You said just now whether it rotates or not is more important than iron or rubber. If that's the case the first thing to have then is a rotating handle in your mind? Those Ivanko bells are iron but don't rotate.
 
Can answer the points I have put to Doc as well. Why would a rotating handle make any difference when benching or rows, legs etc

Follow the evidence wherever it leads - Socrates


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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 20:52:04 (permalink)☄ Helpfulby Muscle 2018/11/21 21:13:15
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I personally don't have an issue with either rotating or non rotating handles, I've used both and find either fine. Although I appreciate this may be a personal thing.

Ivanko are the Rolls Royce of bars, plates and dumbbells up there for quality with Watson (dumbbells) and Eleiko for bars and plates/discs.
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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 21:20:38 (permalink)
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Dav
 
Did you notice a difference when benching or rowing doing legs with fixed handle vs the rotating dumbbell handle. When do you feel a rotating handle is needed?
 
Eleiko and Watson are the only two company's which do the rotating dumbbell handles. Ivanko like you say are at the highest quality and they don't rotate so I can assume with no doubt a fixed is ok for most people.

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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 22:10:17 (permalink)
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Rotating dumbbells are mostly used for things like one arm snatches. Just like with the barbells you want the bar to turn freely from the plates or the inertia of the rotating plates puts tremendous stress on the wrist and throws off your movement.
 
I suppose it may be a bit like that if you're doing some really heavy curls but I don't think many people would ever be curling with good form dumbbells heavy enough for it make much difference.
 
For presses and rows you're probably better off with regular dumbbells, they generally feel more stable as doc mentioned. Best case scenario you get used to them and it makes no difference at all, but they cost a lot more...
post edited by Uriel - 2018/11/21 22:15:25
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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 22:22:26 (permalink)
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Muscle

Thanks for getting back to me mate. There is quite a bit to understand with dumbbells. Bushing, bearing, metal on metal, rubber, iron, grip style, straight handle or ego, grip thickness, rotating handle or fixed, welded or thread locked, the size of plates, the length of handle relative to the size of plates, more I forgot off the top of head.
 
I'm still a little confused. You said just now whether it rotates or not is more important than iron or rubber. If that's the case the first thing to have then is a rotating handle in your mind? Those Ivanko bells are iron but don't rotate.
 
Can answer the points I have put to Doc as well. Why would a rotating handle make any difference when benching or rows, legs etc


Sorry mate, I didn't mean that rotating handles really mattered to me. I just figured (influenced heavily by this thread) that it would be important to some people, and if so it would possibly be more important than whether they were cast iron rubber. I didn't really think about why you might want spinning handles...

I think it would make most I difference for dumbbell snatches or for getting dumbells in position for bench or shoulder press. But for most dumbell exercises you dont rotate the weight a huge amount during the movement.
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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 22:36:32 (permalink)
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Uriel
 
Yes that is what my conclusion is, the rationale for them is eliminating the rotation inertia. But you only get that on the Oly lifts.
 
What if I cleaned the bells from the ground with the bells by the side of legs then did an OHP. Would that then require a rotating handle? 
 
I don't recall doc mentioning regular fixed non rotating dumbbells feel more stable for press and rows? He said he wouldn't buy dumbbells if they didn't have a rotating handle as that is the most important part.
 
I agree with you on curls the handle would want to rotate and it would stress the wrists at a certain weight. But what if you did hammer curls? Is there a need for any rotation there?
 
If I can avoid getting rotating handles I will as the cost is massive compared to regular thread and bolt fixed non rotating handle bells. Also a welded bell is much for money compared to thread and bolt. 
post edited by Muscle - 2018/11/21 22:44:52

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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 22:43:05 (permalink)
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Furious D
 
Thanks mate that clears up the confusion. How do you get on benching and pressing all lifts really with fixed handle dumbbells?  
 

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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 23:00:23 (permalink)☄ Helpfulby Muscle 2018/11/21 23:16:44
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Muscle
Uriel
 
Yes that is what my conclusion is, the rationale for them is eliminating the rotation inertia. But you only get that on the Oly lifts.
 
What if I cleaned the bells from the ground with the bells by the side of legs then did an OHP. Would that then require a rotating handle? 
 
I don't recall doc mentioning regular fixed non rotating dumbbells feel more stable for press and rows? He said he wouldn't buy dumbbells if they didn't have a rotating handle as that is the most important part.
 
I agree with you on curls the handle would want to rotate and it would stress the wrists at a certain weight. But what if you did hammer curls? Is there a need for any rotation there?
 
If I can avoid getting rotating handles I will as the cost is massive compared to regular thread and bolt fixed non rotating handle bells. Also a welded bell is much for money compared to thread and bolt. 


I thought doc was talking about the rotating ones when he mentioned how when they get heavier you have to relax your grip. I personally find bars that rotate too freely a bit awkward to press/row they seem to add another level of instability to the exercise. But like I said I think once you get used to it shouldn't make a difference the physics of a press aren't affected by whether or not the handles turn freely. Neither would a hammer curl, it's a simple matter of whether or not the movement causes the plates to rotate, if it does when the plates stop there's a reaction torque on your wrist unless they're allowed to rotate freely from the handle. But like I said in regular curls you'd have to be moving some pretty heavy dumbbells for it to become an issue, most people I see "curling" those sort of dumbbells are doing underhand cleans...
 
Unless you're going to use them for those explosive/olympic/strongman lifts I wouldn't bother with rotating dumbbell handles at all, it really is a lot of money for something I don't think you'll get much benefit from. Plus you have to be extra careful about dropping them or you'll ruin them.
post edited by Uriel - 2018/11/21 23:04:47
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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 23:13:31 (permalink)
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The complication here is that I have always used an adjustable Oly handle which rotates. I use dumbbells for just about everything now and find its better for joint health and better mechanics. I have pretty much zero experience with a non rotating fixed handle.
 
I want a rack of pro bells to replace adjustable Oly handle. The predicament is get fixed handle bells or get what I am used to -  handles which rotates.
 
It should be obvious really, everyone uses pro bells which doesn't have a rotating handle. Pro bodybuilders do 200lb dumbbell bench press's with a fixed handle and it doesn't hurt their wrists or elbows. Plus everything else.
 
Incertitude devolved due to Furious D input which is now cleared up and Doc saying he wouldn't buy dumbbells unless the handle rotates. Also that is what I have always had. I didn't understand his point for rolling the bells on the ground as guild for enough rotation either. Sure He's get back to me on that.
 
 
 

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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/21 23:33:06 (permalink)
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Uriel
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Uriel
 
Yes that is what my conclusion is, the rationale for them is eliminating the rotation inertia. But you only get that on the Oly lifts.
 
What if I cleaned the bells from the ground with the bells by the side of legs then did an OHP. Would that then require a rotating handle? 
 
I don't recall doc mentioning regular fixed non rotating dumbbells feel more stable for press and rows? He said he wouldn't buy dumbbells if they didn't have a rotating handle as that is the most important part.
 
I agree with you on curls the handle would want to rotate and it would stress the wrists at a certain weight. But what if you did hammer curls? Is there a need for any rotation there?
 
If I can avoid getting rotating handles I will as the cost is massive compared to regular thread and bolt fixed non rotating handle bells. Also a welded bell is much for money compared to thread and bolt. 


I thought doc was talking about the rotating ones when he mentioned how when they get heavier you have to relax your grip. I personally find bars that rotate too freely a bit awkward to press/row they seem to add another level of instability to the exercise. But like I said I think once you get used to it shouldn't make a difference the physics of a press aren't affected by whether or not the handles turn freely. Neither would a hammer curl, it's a simple matter of whether or not the movement causes the plates to rotate, if it does when the plates stop there's a reaction torque on your wrist unless they're allowed to rotate freely from the handle. But like I said in regular curls you'd have to be moving some pretty heavy dumbbells for it to become an issue, most people I see "curling" those sort of dumbbells are doing underhand cleans...
 
Unless you're going to use them for those explosive/olympic/strongman lifts I wouldn't bother with rotating dumbbell handles at all, it really is a lot of money for something I don't think you'll get much benefit from. Plus you have to be extra careful about dropping them or you'll ruin them.




No, Doc was referring to the fixed non rotating handles. Because the handle wants to turn but can't so you have to loosen the grip. With rotating handles you don't need to loosen the grip. This was Mark Rpptoes point with his dumbbells when he does a snatch. He doesn't want to loose the grip on a snatch so he has rotating handles.
 
That's what I was thinking if it rotates too freely. Might add some instability. Like the Watson bells. They have bearing in them and are very free spinning. The adjustable Oly handle I have has a bushing so is less smooth.
 
I agree explosive/olympic/strongman is where its needed. Regular lifts bench, rows, legs, skulls, hammer curls, everything really is OK with out a rotating handle . Maybe regular curls I am still unsure with your conclusion there.
 
What about cleaning the bells for an OHP though?  
 
 
 
post edited by Muscle - 2018/11/21 23:45:08

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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/22 00:43:46 (permalink)
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This bloke did it OK. I can't see why any rotation in the handle is needed for an OHP if you clean the bells this way. I was thinking I may have been benefiting with my rotating Oly adjustable handles, but I probably wasn't. 

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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/22 07:20:50 (permalink)
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Indeed. I don't think you would benefit from rotating handles if you bring the dbs up with the handles running front to back.
Watching that video and thinking about how I would do it (both dbs together without help from my thigh, but with lighter weights than that!) I don't think I roll the dbs around their handle either to go from a hang position to a dB press. I don't think I do for dB bench either.
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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/23 00:43:27 (permalink)
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Furious D
Indeed. I don't think you would benefit from rotating handles if you bring the dbs up with the handles running front to back.
Watching that video and thinking about how I would do it (both dbs together without help from my thigh, but with lighter weights than that!) I don't think I roll the dbs around their handle either to go from a hang position to a dB press. I don't think I do for dB bench either.



Yes that's the way to lift them. Like you say same with benching, lift the bells hammer style running front to back getting into position.

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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/23 00:43:43 (permalink)
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bump for Doc as well
 

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Re: Rubber dumbbells vs cast iron dumbbells 2018/11/23 07:59:54 (permalink)
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Incidentally, another handle issue has occurred to me... My old gym had thin metal flanges on the inside of the plates (ie at each end of the handle). Mostly this wasn't an issue, but for DB rows I would find the dumbell would slip backwards during a set and those flanges would then press into your hand. Not a major issue, but pretty uncomfortable!

Probably only going to be something to look out for if you go for a second hand home made set or something like that... but given the amount of thought you've otherwise given your dumbbells I thought i throw that in.
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