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Mimic
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2005/07/25 18:54:05 (permalink)

Running

I've been thinking of taking up running lately. Everyone is telling me not to do it cause it's bad on the knees, which is obvious. Everyone is telling me to walk instead, however, the reason I'm thinking of running is this: How often do you see a fat runner? Usually never. How often do you see a fat walker? All the time.

This leads me to believe that running does seem to benefit more than walking, plus, I like to move fast, I hate having to stare at my destination for an hour.

Thanks,
-Mimic
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    dirtyvest
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    RE: Running 2005/07/25 19:08:27 (permalink)
    Interesting logic....LOL. If you are overweight and unfit then running is not going to be a pleasant experience.

    Running is good cardio, if impact is of concern the ensure a soft surface such as grass and a good trainer.
    #2
    sillynarbie
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    RE: Running 2005/07/25 21:52:28 (permalink)
    When you run don't land on your heels, land on the balls of your feet, this stops you over-reaching and straightening your leg on impact, which ****s up your knees and back.

    Watch the IAAF GP thats on this weekend on eurosport, tape any of the running events and watch them running in slow-motion, none of them let their heel touch the ground ever.
    post edited by sillynarbie - 2005/07/25 21:53:40
    #3
    ink
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    RE: Running 2005/07/25 22:01:37 (permalink)
    I would definately agree that heel landing is harder on the knees, but possibly easier on the shins.
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    footdee
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    RE: Running 2005/07/25 22:28:22 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Mimic

    I've been thinking of taking up running lately. Everyone is telling me not to do it cause it's bad on the knees, which is obvious. Everyone is telling me to walk instead, however, the reason I'm thinking of running is this: How often do you see a fat runner? Usually never. How often do you see a fat walker? All the time.

    This leads me to believe that running does seem to benefit more than walking, plus, I like to move fast, I hate having to stare at my destination for an hour.

    Thanks,
    -Mimic

    Hey Mimic, just give it a try, you might like it, you might hate it! I've always loved running but it's not everyones cup of tea. My BF saw the light recently and is trying to get fit, hated walking cos it seemed too slow, hated running cos it was too hard for him so he borrowed his mates bike to see if he liked that and now you can't get him off the thing. Finding something you enjoy is the most important thing really, if you hate something, no matter how effective it is, you probably won't stick at it for long.
    post edited by footdee - 2005/07/25 22:29:07
    #5
    sillynarbie
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    RE: Running 2005/07/25 23:12:16 (permalink)
    The only thing running on your balls is hard on is your calves! After I came back from a 2 week holiday I went for a 30 min run not landing on heels and by the end of it I was almost in tears of pain, wasn't able to walk properly for a week either, had to sit down and shuffle down the stairs as I couldn't walk down them ! DOMs lasted for well over a week, it was awful, but once they're used to it its fine. Running for over an hour a day now and don't have any DOMs what-so-ever.
    #6
    sootybaby
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    RE: Running 2005/07/26 10:59:34 (permalink)
    sillynarbie- When I sprint I am up on my toes but not for any distance. For casual runners much of the current shoe design reflects this with the majority of cushioning on the heel and the dynamics of energy return systems tailored for the heel-toe-heel gait.

    Toe-toe would be very hard for the heavier runner over any real distance. 400m is about all I could go for.
    #7
    Mimic
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    RE: Running 2005/07/26 19:12:24 (permalink)
    Thanks for all the replies, I am a bit heavier. I've gone from 265 and now am down to 215, my goal is 200, I think that will fit me well, I've been doing a lot of weight training, not body building but just getting my muscles toned, I look really good now exept I've got a bit on my abs that are covering them up, really bugging me now, I was thinking some more intense cardio may help and I was thinking running, I ride my bike a bit, use my stationary bike a bit, walk a bit, figured running maybe a good thing to take up next. Good to hear about how to run, I didn't know that, is there by chance some type of shoe insert you can buy thet can help you get in proper form, like a Doctor Sholes type of thing?

    -Mimic
    #8
    sillynarbie
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    RE: Running 2005/07/26 22:39:43 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: sootybaby

    sillynarbie- When I sprint I am up on my toes but not for any distance. For casual runners much of the current shoe design reflects this with the majority of cushioning on the heel and the dynamics of energy return systems tailored for the heel-toe-heel gait.

    Toe-toe would be very hard for the heavier runner over any real distance. 400m is about all I could go for.


    This is pretty much the case with everybody- trainers are designed like that because 99% of people who run don't know how to run properly. Running on your toes is far more efficient and far less damaging to your knees and other joints. Its a choice you make, spend a little time adjusting to get faster times and make sure you avoid a knee replacement operation or don't!

    I'm 16 stone at the moment and run on the balls of my feet. Like I said it does take a few weeks for your calves to get used to it, but after that its plain sailing.
    post edited by sillynarbie - 2005/07/26 22:40:04
    #9
    sootybaby
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    RE: Running 2005/07/27 10:51:26 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: sillynarbie

    ORIGINAL: sootybaby

    sillynarbie- When I sprint I am up on my toes but not for any distance. For casual runners much of the current shoe design reflects this with the majority of cushioning on the heel and the dynamics of energy return systems tailored for the heel-toe-heel gait.

    Toe-toe would be very hard for the heavier runner over any real distance. 400m is about all I could go for.


    This is pretty much the case with everybody- trainers are designed like that because 99% of people who run don't know how to run properly. Running on your toes is far more efficient and far less damaging to your knees and other joints. Its a choice you make, spend a little time adjusting to get faster times and make sure you avoid a knee replacement operation or don't!

    I'm 16 stone at the moment and run on the balls of my feet. Like I said it does take a few weeks for your calves to get used to it, but after that its plain sailing.



    Sometimes Sillynarbie, I wonder who teaches you these things. Are you honestly trying to say that shoe manufacturers such as ASICS and New Balance are merely catering for 99% of know-nothings and that you are the enlightened 1%.

    That is pure running-fascism. For a start there is no 'one true style'. The fact is that most sprinters run on the balls of there feet. Most middle-distance runners run flat footed and heel landings are standard for longer distances.

    The most important aspect to injury free running is to run as lightly as you can and this process is best aided by what is described as 'pawback'. Pawback is the name given to the movement in which you bring your foot back just prior to contact with the ground.

    This is taken from Michael Yessis, a biomechanics bod:

    For sprinters

    Sprinters bring their leg back so powerfully that they land on the ball of their foot when it is directly under their center of gravity. Not only does this create greater forces to push their body forward, it produces no braking force. In other words, the speed of their leg pulling back equals the speed of the body moving forward.

    Landing on the ball of the foot instead of the heel creates greater loading on the calf muscles, which must contract. These muscles absorb the landing forces from the body and, because they are like elastic, give some of them back in the push off. This is why sprinters do not want shoes with great energy-absorbing properties. Shock-absorbing shoes would reduce their driving forces and slow down the runner.

    For distance runners

    Similar principles apply to distance running. With pawback, your body passes over its support on the ground as quickly as possible. This allows maximum loading of your muscles with the lowest braking force. But this will not happen if your shoes absorb all the forces!

    In summary, although there are different ways to land, each touchdown should follow pawback. The slower the pawback (as in the marathon), the more you land on the back of your heel and slightly in front of your center of gravity. The faster the pawback (as in middle distances of, say, 1,500 to 3,000 meters), the more you land flat-footed and almost directly under your center of gravity. In the fastest pawback of the sprinter, you land on the ball of your foot exactly under your center of gravity.


    Now the majority of casual runners will fall into the flat or heel strike style. The important thing is to move the foot back prior to hitting the ground and pulling the foot along the ground propelling yopurself forward, thus maintaining forward momentum. If you are a heel striker and do not do this, you will be crashing onto your heel and the energy will be dissipating up your leg causing all of those shin-splint and other tendon problems that plaugue people.

    And unless your pawback technique is correct, you are as likely to be doing this damage to yourself, even if you run on the balls of your feet.
    #10
    Rockwell
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    RE: Running 2005/07/27 14:54:01 (permalink)
    Sootybaby, good to see a voice of reason here. I pursued distance running competitively for many years and know that distance runners that were toe runners have numerous continual problems with calves, achilles, shin splints...not to mention it's mechanically less efficient for distances.

    I also want to say that the idea that running is bad for the knees is a bit of myth. Of course running can and eventually will result in inflammation and soreness to some portion of the knee (depending on training intensity, technique, and other factors). But if the irritation is treated there will be no long-term damage done to the joint. There was a study done at least 20 years ago that found marathoners have a slightly lower incidence of osteo-arthritis in later years than sedentary people.
    Just don't run if your knees hurt seriously and make sure you have good shoes and increase distance gradually and there's no reason that running should hurt your knees.
    #11
    sillynarbie
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    RE: Running 2005/07/27 22:01:05 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: sootybaby


    ORIGINAL: sillynarbie

    ORIGINAL: sootybaby

    sillynarbie- When I sprint I am up on my toes but not for any distance. For casual runners much of the current shoe design reflects this with the majority of cushioning on the heel and the dynamics of energy return systems tailored for the heel-toe-heel gait.

    Toe-toe would be very hard for the heavier runner over any real distance. 400m is about all I could go for.


    This is pretty much the case with everybody- trainers are designed like that because 99% of people who run don't know how to run properly. Running on your toes is far more efficient and far less damaging to your knees and other joints. Its a choice you make, spend a little time adjusting to get faster times and make sure you avoid a knee replacement operation or don't!

    I'm 16 stone at the moment and run on the balls of my feet. Like I said it does take a few weeks for your calves to get used to it, but after that its plain sailing.



    Sometimes Sillynarbie, I wonder who teaches you these things. Are you honestly trying to say that shoe manufacturers such as ASICS and New Balance are merely catering for 99% of know-nothings and that you are the enlightened 1%.

    That is pure running-fascism. For a start there is no 'one true style'. The fact is that most sprinters run on the balls of there feet. Most middle-distance runners run flat footed and heel landings are standard for longer distances.

    The most important aspect to injury free running is to run as lightly as you can and this process is best aided by what is described as 'pawback'. Pawback is the name given to the movement in which you bring your foot back just prior to contact with the ground.

    This is taken from Michael Yessis, a biomechanics bod:

    For sprinters

    Sprinters bring their leg back so powerfully that they land on the ball of their foot when it is directly under their center of gravity. Not only does this create greater forces to push their body forward, it produces no braking force. In other words, the speed of their leg pulling back equals the speed of the body moving forward.

    Landing on the ball of the foot instead of the heel creates greater loading on the calf muscles, which must contract. These muscles absorb the landing forces from the body and, because they are like elastic, give some of them back in the push off. This is why sprinters do not want shoes with great energy-absorbing properties. Shock-absorbing shoes would reduce their driving forces and slow down the runner.

    For distance runners

    Similar principles apply to distance running. With pawback, your body passes over its support on the ground as quickly as possible. This allows maximum loading of your muscles with the lowest braking force. But this will not happen if your shoes absorb all the forces!

    In summary, although there are different ways to land, each touchdown should follow pawback. The slower the pawback (as in the marathon), the more you land on the back of your heel and slightly in front of your center of gravity. The faster the pawback (as in middle distances of, say, 1,500 to 3,000 meters), the more you land flat-footed and almost directly under your center of gravity. In the fastest pawback of the sprinter, you land on the ball of your foot exactly under your center of gravity.


    Now the majority of casual runners will fall into the flat or heel strike style. The important thing is to move the foot back prior to hitting the ground and pulling the foot along the ground propelling yopurself forward, thus maintaining forward momentum. If you are a heel striker and do not do this, you will be crashing onto your heel and the energy will be dissipating up your leg causing all of those shin-splint and other tendon problems that plaugue people.

    And unless your pawback technique is correct, you are as likely to be doing this damage to yourself, even if you run on the balls of your feet.


    Obviously theres more to perfect running technique that just landing on the balls of your feet, I was just trying to suggest a starting point which will improve upon the conventional landing on your heel running.

    If landing on your heels is standard practice for longer distances, why do no top marathon runners run like that? Landing on your heel acts as a break as is a far less efficient form of running that landing flat-footed/on your toes.
    #12
    Rockwell
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    RE: Running 2005/07/27 23:11:37 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: sillynarbie

    If landing on your heels is standard practice for longer distances, why do no top marathon runners run like that? Landing on your heel acts as a break as is a far less efficient form of running that landing flat-footed/on your toes.


    That's because they are running 4:50 miles. That's a pretty fast pace. When they do their longer training runs they do land on their heels. Which part of the foot you land on doesn't dictate where your center of gravity is. You can land on your heel even with your center of gravity in front of the heel. In fact, this allows you to roll from the heel to the toe creating a falling-forward effect which is very efficient.

    Besides, even at world-class competitions many of the top runners will be heel striking if you watch closely...although many do land pretty flat footed.

    From my experience a flat footed impact transmits more shock to the knee than a proper heel landing.
    #13
    sillynarbie
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    RE: Running 2005/07/27 23:37:46 (permalink)
    A great deal of time goes into perfecting technique for marathon runners, I doubt your suggestion that they change their technique is correct, especially as the whole point in the long mileage run is to "engrain" correct running technique as well as improve fitness.
    #14
    sootybaby
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    RE: Running 2005/07/28 10:08:34 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: sillynarbie

    A great deal of time goes into perfecting technique for marathon runners, I doubt your suggestion that they change their technique is correct, especially as the whole point in the long mileage run is to "engrain" correct running technique as well as improve fitness.


    I give up. Carry on running in 'Sillynarbieland'.
    #15
    Rockwell
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    RE: Running 2005/07/28 13:20:26 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: sillynarbie

    A great deal of time goes into perfecting technique for marathon runners, I doubt your suggestion that they change their technique is correct, especially as the whole point in the long mileage run is to "engrain" correct running technique as well as improve fitness.


    Not what I meant. Technique changes as speed increases. This is natural for any and every runner. As you run faster you strike less on the heel. world class marathoners will train at @ 7:00/mile pace and strike on their heels. When racing at 4:50/mile they will often strike more flat footed although I don't agree with your contention that they all do. In fact I think that most still strike smoothly on their heels.

    Take a look at this picture that shows a world-class marathoner, in a competition, striking on his heel.

    http://www.nyrrc.org/nyrrc/marathon/news/story_3.php
    #16
    sillynarbie
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    RE: Running 2005/07/28 22:58:50 (permalink)
    Ahh, you see hes not actually striking with his heel, if you watch a marathon runner in slow-motion like I said you should, what you will see is exactly what you see there, but literally at the last milli-second the foot is moved backwards and a mid-foot strike/toe strike happens.(This is the pawback thing sooty was talking about)

    I found a decent article on the whole running thing that might be of interest: http://www.pursuit-fitness.com/files/running_better_a_guide.pdf
    #17
    Rockwell
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    RE: Running 2005/07/28 23:13:53 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: sillynarbie

    Ahh, you see hes not actually striking with his heel, if you watch a marathon runner in slow-motion like I said you should, what you will see is exactly what you see there, but literally at the last milli-second the foot is moved backwards and a mid-foot strike/toe strike happens.(This is the pawback thing sooty was talking about)

    I found a decent article on the whole running thing that might be of interest: http://www.pursuit-fitness.com/files/running_better_a_guide.pdf


    I'm very familiar with what you describe, thanks for the article link. It's an issue that's in dispute among the pro coaches, I still subscribe to the heel strike for long, slow running (slow meaning less than elite race pace). Note that what part of your foot strikes has nothing to do with where it lands in relation to your center of gravity, so I'm NOT advocating striking ahead of your body and slowing yourself down with each step. In fact, if a runner were to change nothing but their foot strike (without changing stride length) then switching from heel to their toes would actually then be overstriding and would put the brakes on with each stride.

    Thanks for the discussion.
    #18
    sillynarbie
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    RE: Running 2005/07/28 23:16:35 (permalink)
    I'm no expert on anything to do with running, I don't know the effects of this centre of gravity business or changing technique with changing paces, I just know that as far as Injury is concerned, it has to be better letting your calf muscles(which are elastic) take the brunt of the impact, rather than your knees, shins, and back. Thats all I was getting at.
    #19
    Rockwell
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    RE: Running 2005/07/29 13:32:38 (permalink)
    I hear you, but that adjustment to protect the knees upward will increase the risk of injury below the knees (calf muscle, achilles, plantar's fascia, and shins...yes shins are more prone to injury in toe strike).
    However, especially after acclimation it might protect knees/hips/back more. However, heel striking the right way can help to minimize forces transmitted upwards also. For one thing, a runner can minimize their up and down movement as they run so that they land with less downward force. In addition, make sure you realize that the heel bone extends backwards behind the ankle so that there is a lever affect upon impact. If you carefully control the roll-down of the foot during the landing (using the shin muscles) it can be quite a gentle rolling-on that imparts much less impact.
    In my days as a competitive runner I routinely ran more than 100 miles/week. I also had the curse of being prone to injury especially of the knees (I'm extremely small boned with corresponding small tendons). I did experiment quite a bit and found I was no less prone to knee injuries with toe or flat foot strikes.
    As a result of my training regimen and propensity to injury I perfected a very gentle landing and fluid stride that allowed me to (generally) avoid injury even when running 10-15 miles per day.
    I don't want to go in to the explanation, but landing on your heel vs. toe gives you an extra 6 or so inches of travel with each stride (given the exact same initial point of impact). That, along with the fact that when done right it doesn't increase the likelihood of injury, is why I am an advocate of heel landing. I'm also not dogmatic about it and feel as though everyone should experiment. If you simply do cardio for 20 minutes 3 days per week then I really don't think it matters which way you want to land.
    #20
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