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Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno

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jtay
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2006/07/10 19:41:36 (permalink)

Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno

This is big!!! Just the opposite of what most people have thought all along!!! AI's such as Armidix are the kings in increasing T's but SERM's such as Evista and Nolvadex are the kings in treating Bitch Tits.

Evista/raloxifene is the clear winner for gyno with Nolvadex/Tamoxifen a close second.

Man, just think all of the so-called experts with their web-pages that have been giving incorrect information about Armidix being the king for bitch tits when it is virtually useless for gyno treatment. Just another example of how most the so-called experts know not what they say. Any comments:

Raloxifene (Evista) and Tamoxifen (Nolvadex):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15998589&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14759718&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=10651345&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2237557&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3664552&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15238910&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3123765&query_hl=1

Anastrozole (Arimidex):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16144678&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15356042&query_hl=1

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15273427&query_hl=1


#1

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    predator1984uk
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/10 19:44:03 (permalink)
    u div, every one knows that,arimidex wont help formed gyno but if ran all the way through will prevent it in 90% of people.nolva on the other hand can have some use in removing formed gyno(to an extent)
    #2
    Jax Demon
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/10 19:47:32 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: predator1984uk

    u div, every one knows that,arimidex wont help formed gyno but if ran all the way through will prevent it in 90% of people.nolva on the other hand can have some use in removing formed gyno(to an extent)



    pmsl

    at least he tried
    #3
    RedTim
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/10 19:49:48 (permalink)
    WHY HAS NO-ONE TOLD ME THIS BEFORE!

    lol
    #4
    predator1984uk
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/10 20:02:07 (permalink)
    lol funny,proper wrote what i was thinking.must have took ages to post all that soz m8.nice find
    #5
    Mr Munch
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/10 20:38:58 (permalink)
    "bitch tits" god I hate that phrase.

    Some good links though mate, welcome to the board. But as said, nolva is what members here already recommend for gyno.

    #6
    drab4
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/10 23:06:26 (permalink)
    Welcome to the forum mate

    Yes tamoxifen has long been the first choice of MT members for the treatment of gyno. Almost always prefered over anastrozole for this

    Raloxifene on the other hand is not often used by guys here, mainly just because it's not so widely available as the others

    #7
    jtay
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/11 09:58:03 (permalink)
    Thanks drab 4 and Mr Munch for the welcome!

    I hate to break it to those who think that Arimidex prevents pre-formed gyno! Read on.....

    Since Clomiphene (Clomid) is basically useless for Gyno, it seems like a good combo would be Nolvadex or Evista for prevention/reduction of Gyno combined with Arimidex or Femara (Letrozole) for increased FSH, LH and resulting T's.

    While I realize that SERN's such as Nolvadex and Evista may "slightly" suppress Arimidex and Femara's ability to reduce estrogen, this may be a good thing in that the ideal balance of estrogen can be maintained while reaping the rewards from increased T's. In other words, since Nolvadex and Evista raise estrogen, in comparison to Arimidex and Femara reducing estrogen, the estrogen reduction won't be as much thereby maintaing a healthy level of E's while still getting the benefit from the increased FSH, LH and resulting T's associated with Arimidex and Femara and the superior Gyno protection from Evista or Nolvadex.

    While it may not be true in the UK, here in the USA the thinking is typically opposite of scientific studies due to misinformation by so-called experts who don't know how, or don't take the time, to do proper research, in that most take AI' s such as Arimidex for Gyno and SERN's such as Clomid for increased T's which is the point I was trying to make. Although Clomid increases FSH and LH and resulting T's, so does Arimidex and Femara and even better. So if Clomid offers little to no protection from Gyno, and Arimidex and Femara offer little to no protection from Gyno, one would have to include Nolvadex or Evista in their regime for proper Gyno maintenance and if Arimidex and Femara are better for increasing T's, why take Clomid at all?

    Therefore, if you ignore the hype, stick with scientific studies, reverse conventional thinking, and use Arimidex or Femara for increased T's and Evista or Nolvadex for Gyno maintanence it would seem that one would have the best of both worlds. I know some will say just take high doses of Clomid. The short answer is there are no scientific studies to back that theory up and also you put yourself at undue risk of side effects, when you can take the combination I mention in lower doses with a much better chance of success of maintaining Gyno and increasing T's. Also, an advantage of Nolvadex is that it is one of the few drugs that has scientific proof that results do not degrade with age unlike some of the others.

    Also, note the first link under Arimidex/Gyno. Respectfully, it does not prevent pre-formed Gyno as most here incorrectly think as compared with tamoxifen (Nolvadex) and Evista which do. You bassically stand a 51% chance of forming Gyno while on Arimidex as compared to a 10% chance while on Nolvadex.

    Comments?

    Clomid/Gyno:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6637910&query_hl=1

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6776752&query_hl=1

    Arimidex/Gyno:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=15681525&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15356042&query_hl=1

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15273427&query_hl=1

    Arimidex/FSH, LH and resulting T's:

    http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/7/2370

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15483079&query_hl=14

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15001605&query_hl=15

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12938779&query_hl=16

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11231978&query_hl=18

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=11397860&query_hl=17

    Femara/FSH, LH and resulting T's:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16046582&query_hl=1

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15811136&query_hl=1

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=14623531&query_hl=1


    #8
    jtay
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/11 10:12:00 (permalink)
    In fact, drab4, respectfully, since so many here incorrectly think they have the ultimate pre-formed gyno protection from Arimidex, and so many here include it in their regime for gyno protection, I think the scientific link below that proves them wrong, should be made a heading by itself assuming it is the purpose of this forum to infom others what really works best based on scientific fact, not fiction.

    Here it is again just in case you decide to do it:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=abstractplus&list_uids=15681525&query_hl=6&itool=pubmed_docsum



    Best regards,

    Jtay
    #9
    wheycasein
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/11 10:23:49 (permalink)
    If one uses arimidex or letro etc to reduce estrogen to almost nil then gyno is unlikely to form in the first place.
    #10
    jtay
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/11 10:38:00 (permalink)
    Another option that needs to be ruled out, is Clomid for T's and Nolva or Evista for gyno. Why? They all three are SERM's and they all three raise E's.

    Therefore, to raise T's the logical choice is Anastrozole (Arimidex) or Letrozole (Femara) because they both lower E's to offset the effects of the increased E's by Nolva or Evista assuming you are open to combining drugs for what promises to be the ultimate solution.

    The reason I stated in my first post...."This is Big!!!" is because, we can now scientifically question the two biggest drugs in use, Clomid and Arimidex, and the role they play in our regime. Therefore, I again submit, based on scientfic fact, that the role of Arimidex as a gyno buster will soon be diminished and exchanged for a T booster, and Clomid's role will soon take a back seat to the others due to there are just better choices to be made in my opinion by combining the best SERM's with the best AI's.
    #11
    jtay
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/11 11:01:48 (permalink)
    While that may be true, to my knowledge, scientific study has yet to support that.

    In fact, in contrast to what many think, risk of Gyno is not soley attributed to estrogen levels as evidenced by the fact that Evista and Nolva obtained the best Gyno test results while at the same time increasing estrogen levels.

    Furthermore, a good argument can be made that "to reduce estrogen to almost nil" is not a healthy alternative as many believe that estrogen plays an important role in our body chemistry.

    Regards,
    #12
    PartyBoy
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/11 13:56:26 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: jtay

    In fact, drab4, respectfully, since so many here incorrectly think they have the ultimate pre-formed gyno protection from Arimidex,



    Hang on a sec, who thinks that??

     
    #13
    PartyBoy
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/11 13:59:08 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: jtay
    In fact, in contrast to what many think, risk of Gyno is not soley attributed to estrogen levels as evidenced by the fact that Evista and Nolva obtained the best Gyno test results while at the same time increasing estrogen levels.



    Nolva is an estrogen in itself which simply binds to the receptor in place of circulating estrogen. Whether levels of estrogen are rising is irrelevant if their ability to dock is hampered.

     
    #14
    jtay
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/11 15:26:24 (permalink)
    "u div, every one knows that,arimidex wont help formed gyno but if ran all the way through will prevent it in 90% of people."

    In fact, you're incorrect, scientific studies show, one has a better chance (51% to 49%) of developing Gyno than not, while on Arimidex.

    "nolva on the other hand can have some use in removing formed gyno(to an extent)"

    In fact, you're incorrect, as scientific studies show Nolvadex to be VERY effective in resolving Gyno in fatty gynaecomastia 83.3% of the time and lump' gynaecomastia 100% of the time, with a 78.2% overall cure rate which is much more than "to an extent".


    Respectfully, a perfect example of what I have been talking about. Much misinformation in this Industry based on hype not fact.

    Hard to admit I know, but yes, looks like the majority of the Industry, including the magazines, web-pages, doctor's etc., etc., has it wrong on this one.
    #15
    jtay
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/11 15:49:41 (permalink)
    My point is....why have off the chart estrogen which could be the result of a combination of two SERM's such as Clomid and Nolva, when one can most likely obtain a balanced chart by combining the two best for Gyna, Evista or Nolvadex, with Arimidex or Femara? The excess estrogen of the Clomid/Nolva combo might cause other problems, so why take the chance when a better choice is to be had?

    As far as Nolva (Tamoxifen) and Clomid being estrogens, well not exactly, but I know wht you meant. To be exact, they are Selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) which is a "class of medication that acts on the estrogen receptor. A characteristic that distinguishes these substances from receptor agonists and antagonists is that their action is different for various tissues, thereby granting the possibility to selectively inhibit or stimulate estrogen-like action in various tissues."


    Since I'm new. Could you expalin about the moderators. How many are there? Who is the moderator of this particular thread? The reason I ask is I wrote a post to drab4 thinking he was the moderator but yet I see you have moderator by your name as well. I can figure out the compliacted stuff, but give me something simple to do, and I'm at a loss :)
    #16
    jtay
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/11 16:16:50 (permalink)
    I just figured the moderators out. Wow, that was difficult...Duh!

    As far as your statement ...."Hang on a sec, who thinks that??"

    While you may not, almost everyone else does it appears, as evidenced by some early responses to my posts and the slew of mis-information by the majority of web-pages on the subject and articles written by the so-caled experts touting misinformation .

    The problem in this Industry, is a so-called expert writes an article and everyone else relays the information and very few actually do the research to substantiate the claims of the so-called expert.
    #17
    jtay
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/13 01:07:02 (permalink)
    I have received my baseline hormone profile. I have low LH, FSH and resulting less than optimal FT and TT.
    Although my estradiol is within optimal range, I have developed mild Gynecomastia as a result of my low T's. As I desire to rid my Gyno, I have chosen to use Ralaxifene (Evista) as it has proven, scientifically, to be the best remedy for Gyno.

    As the studies suggest, I expect an increase in TT but not much in FT due to increased SHBG. If this happens, I may elect to add an AI such as Arimidex to increase FT, or even a steroid such as Tibolone (Livial) that reduces SHBG substantially and thereby increases FT substantially.

    However, as a conservative user of performance enhancing supplements, I will submit to another hormone profile after 30-days to see what effect the Evista is having on my other hormones before making any further decisions. For those interested in real world effects of Evista relating to existing gyno, I will report accordingly as results dictate.

    Regards,

    Jtay
    #18
    jtay
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/13 01:32:13 (permalink)
    If you wonder why I chose Raloxifene (Evista) over Tamoxifen (Nolvadex) the following study was just too much to ignore.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15238910&query_hl=1
    #19
    Ghostman
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    RE: Scientific Studies are out - Evista and Nolvadex much better than Armidix for Gyno 2006/07/13 01:42:34 (permalink)
    I use raloxifene due to the immense feedback on the US boards.
    #20
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