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Helpful ReplyTRT help from guys who have been there

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thegrimreaper
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2014/12/02 13:04:01 (permalink)

TRT help from guys who have been there

Another TRT thread.
 
I’m aware that a number of guys on MT are on TRT.
 
I’ve mainly hit a brick wall with GP’s until recently I was tested and sent for a referral to an endo and have my appointment soon. I’m looking for some advice from people with first-hand experience of endo’s on the NHS.
 
My situation is I’ve suffered from low test for maybe around 5 years now (confirmed by bloods which started at around 14 and have now dropped below the NHS ‘normal’ now, hence the referral). This is what initially got me into gear in the first place. Whenever I take even a moderate dose of testosterone all of my symptoms vanish of course until I finish the cycle.
 
So my question is how do I handle my Endo? Do I give him my history of gear use and explain that I self medicated which made things better? Or do I not tell him and let him judge me on my symptoms and blood results?
 
I’m worried that by disclosing gear use he’ll look at me with bias and be reluctant to prescribe. Also how is best to approach the appointment? Act like I know nothing about hormones or disclose that I’m very knowledgeable?
 
Essentially I want treatment. I have often thought of permanently self-medicating but have reframed thus so far for a few reasons…
 
  1. I have a medical problem so the NHS should treat me, I shouldn’t have to treat myself.
  2. For health reasons I would rather have the NHS behind me checking bloods regularly to ensure of good health and that my levels are optimal
 
This endo appointment is pretty much my last shot, having literally been laughed at by GP’s in the past and told that it is normal to have a level less than 10 I am beyond the last straw. This appointment hangs on whether or not I self medicate or not. If I hit another brick wall I am taking my health into my own hands and self-medicating so I would greatly appreciate opinions of those who have been through the NHS.
#1
Valley Fitness
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Re: TRT help from guys who have been there 2014/12/02 14:03:51 (permalink)
Been through the process and a year into treatment..
 
Be aware they are reluctant to prescribe and will ask if you still want kids.
 
I had just some of the usual symptoms, but many others not recognised by the medical profession in diagnosis and I would suggest you read up on the "normal ones" and don't mention the symptoms they don't recognise in order not to confuse things. 
 
They ll take notes as you answer questions and you ll get you re balls individually measured which wouldn't have been a bad thing if my endo had nt looked like my grandma !
 
A blood test will be done, then a second one months later and they will prescribe dependant on the combined results and over the next months will monitor levels and adjust the dose - started me on 40mg and I went from a average 10mol natural to 46 mol on that dose and received a letter telling me what to drop the dose to for my next bloods.
 
Nearly a year on she is still trying to find my ideal dose - but don't expect that to be what you feel best on and have no symptoms on as they work on conservative numbers from result and whats expected for your age.
 
 
 
 
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Re: TRT help from guys who have been there 2014/12/02 16:30:11 (permalink)
fwiw - play dumb, don't mention steroids, deny if asked, wear baggy clothes especially if you're in good shape, be articulate & convincing when explaining how it affects your life - stretch the truth. Consider fudging the test a little more using short acting orals to better your bargaining position.
 
Don't expect a yay or nay on the day. Your endo may want a repeat of tests after 3 months to rule out one-off factors ie illness/stress etc

 
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Uriel
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Re: TRT help from guys who have been there 2014/12/02 19:56:57 (permalink)
Don't say you used steroids. In fact say you'd never do it and are morally against it and would never risk your health. Unless your doctor is unusually open-minded it's a sure way to sabotage yourself. The steroids will become a scapegoat for any health problem you have in the future.
 
But don't act stupid. Tell him you've done your homework, you started reading into this testosterone problem and you're somewhat aware of how the HPTA works. Make sure he knows he's not gonna treat you like a moron and get away with it. 
 
Say your sex drive is nonexistent, erections are difficult, even if you have a decent body it took you ages to build it and you see your buddies making gains much faster than you with half as much effort.
 
And if he tells you a testosterone level of 10nmol/l is normal for a healthy young man, tell him it just isn't and he's wrong. Show that you're very sure of what you're saying, and if he dismisses you with a testosterone level like that tell him you'll be filing a complaint on him due to his incompetence.
 
As said you can also fake the tests he prescribes. Take any oral a day or two before the test, your testosterone levels will come back much lower. Then he'll agree to start you on testosterone, your blood test will come back normal and you tell him you're feeling fantastic and it's just what you needed.
 
Maybe it sounds excessive but with public healthcare that's just how it is, if you want things to get done you need to manipulate them and lean on them if need be, or they'll just send you home with some vitamins. It'll be cheaper for them and also covers their ass because there's no risk of the patient returning complaining about side effects from something they prescribed.
 
Or you can just say "**** it" and do it yourself, because none of this bull**** should be necessary just to be prescribed a harmless dose of testosterone.
post edited by Uriel - 2014/12/02 20:06:47
#4
Medic
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Re: TRT help from guys who have been there 2014/12/02 20:30:35 (permalink)☄ Helpfulby The_Lone_Wolf 2014/12/03 09:08:15
Amazing how hard it is to get trt. Yet a woman who complains of a dry vagina gets hormones in a pez dispenser.
Medic
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thegrimreaper
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Re: 2014/12/03 04:36:17 (permalink)
Thank you all for the detailed replies. I'm pretty sure now I'm not going to mention gear. I do have the problem (if you can call it that) of being relatively well muscled and lean which might be an issue but I'll try and hide it.



Uriel/Medic, you're right it is a joke. Not sure why they can't just accept it and treat me its been going on for years now and hence this is the end of the road appointment for me. Fingers crossed. HRT is fine, giving heroin addicts methadone is fine but a guy feels like a ****ing corpse with proven low levels of testosterone and they dismiss it.



If this attempt at trying to get treatment fails I'll be jumping on 100-150mg a week.

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northumbriman
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Re: 2014/12/03 12:45:32 (permalink)
Good luck mate. Never even tried the TRT route. I am 42 (almost 43) and had a vasectomy a few years back. Been feeling like **** ever since but as soon as I started reading into TRT and the process I decided it would just be quicker and easier to turn to the darkside and self med. So far feeling much better and the issue is more to do with knowing you have a safe relaible and genuine source. (not asking for one just saying its an issue)
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Re: 2014/12/03 21:01:06 (permalink)☄ Helpfulby Sprite Goblin 2014/12/17 19:51:57
Been there done it. Had very low test after years of taking steroids. Told endocrinology about everything I had taken over the years. Basically if I had been a women going through menopause I would have been treated better. They prescribed me a test gel. Which is absorbed through the skin. Which I wasn't too keen on. Then I was prescribed nebido injection a 3ml 1000mg every 12 weeks. But because my haemocratic & red blood count was too high they delayed the injection. At this point I could tell my test level was dropping. Due to my work I was unable to keep appointments. So ended up self medicating. I told endo this. So every 12 weeks my gp takes my bloods. To make sure they are ok. My test is always off the scale and my haemocratic and red blood count are too high. I don't envy anyone who has low test. Hypogonadism, andropause. I am 40 years old and have taken steroids for 20 years. So for me taking steroids has become part of my life.. I have had low test for 6 years. Will never totally come off now. As most bodybuilders probably never do. The endo doctor once asked me why I did. I replied pure vanity. Some people like sitting on their arse eating fried food. I like pumping iron and having a good physique.
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thegrimreaper
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Re: 2014/12/04 13:12:32 (permalink)
Yes there are plenty of things people do that affect their health. Quite sure I'm not going to mention gear use to the Endo. He has  duty to treat my symptoms and blood test results.
 
I will update this thread periodically to keep you guys in the loop and also to give an overview of getting TRT on the NHS for others that are going through the same thing.
 
If the Endo appointment goes unfavourably I will self medicate and ask my GP to monitor bloods.
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thegrimreaper
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Re: 2014/12/10 15:15:25 (permalink)
Checking in for those interested.
 
Was due to have my appointment next week for the endo, I did the obligatory blood test (second one) this morning only to get home and find a letter on the door step from the endo telling me that my appointment has been postponed until the end of Feb. 
 
I called the Endo's secretary who explained it was an 'administrative error on their part' and sorry for having to do bloods today (which made me late for work!). Also I'll have to repeat the blood test 2 weeks prior to my next appointment. I went nuts over the phone telling them it was unacceptable to make me live with the symptoms I'm dealing with. They have at least agreed to review this set of bloods and 'try' to fit me into a cancellation before my scheduled appointment at the end of Feb.
 
So far not impressed, if I have to wait until February it will mean I would have waited almost 5 months just for my first endo assessment. Even then, depending on my levels, there is no guarantee that I'll even get any kind of treatment be it that I'm slightly below their 'normal' scale.
 
I'm so tempted to self medicate but going to hold off in hope that I get a cancellation appointment sometime in January (I'm told there is a reasonable chance of this).
 
At this stage and through my experience of the NHS I can see why so many guys just self medicate. The NHS are a complete joke. Also scary how clueless the GP's are with sex hormones the whole situation so far has left a bitter taste in the mouth going forward.
 
Will update when I know more. 
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chris182
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Re: 2014/12/11 11:16:25 (permalink)
I'll be getting tested with test issues next summer, so I'd be interested to know how you get on. I'm convinced I have low test I feel terrible when off cycle no energy no motivation and no libido at all.
Told him this and I was told I was depressed and handed pills that I didn't take because I didn't need them and they would probably make me worse.

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thegrimreaper
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Re: 2014/12/11 11:28:22 (permalink)
chris182
I'll be getting tested with test issues next summer, so I'd be interested to know how you get on. I'm convinced I have low test I feel terrible when off cycle no energy no motivation and no libido at all.
Told him this and I was told I was depressed and handed pills that I didn't take because I didn't need them and they would probably make me worse.





Had the same thing from my GP, was pushed to take anti depressants but flat out refused and told him I wasn't depressed. Although low testosterone can cause depression I've got nothing to be depressed about and the physical symptoms of low test are a hindrance on my home and work life.
 
What is stopping you seeing your GP, just tell him the way you're feeling and that you've done some research and feel you could have a hormonal problem. This was the easy hurdle for me, the difficult bit is convincing them to give you a referral with a level that is single digits but hovering around their 'normal' range cut off (which is usually somewhere around 8-12 depending on lab reference ranges).
 
So far I'm far from impressed with my experience and as you'll read above it is dragging on. If the Endo I see is as clueless as the GP's that I've seen so far then I'm screwed. That said I'll place some trust in him and see how it pans out.
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chris182
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Re: 2014/12/11 14:21:31 (permalink)
Well I'm on 1g of test at the moment so probably a bad idea I'd be off the scale if I got tested now.

I had my test levels checked years ago however he just said it's all within normal range, thanks to this forum I now know that a normal range in his opinion could in fact be rock bottom. I'll wait till next summer till I'm fully recovered then get tested.

When I'm off steroids my Nipples flair up due to high estrogen I even went to the hospital breast clinic they said yeah they can feel a lump but it's fine and that was that no further tests, they asked if I smoked hash or took steroids now I've never taken hash but I denied any steroid use because it had been almost three years since I touched any. My chest was that sore I got a really bad pain when my son pushed on it or tried to climb on me.

It amazes me how quickly the Dr and hospital brush things aside and assume it's nothing and not to worry.

If i don't get the response I want next summer I'll be complaining to the NHS about my treatment, I don't usually like to cause a fuss but it's a pretty important matter and it had serious implementations on my daily life
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Re: 2014/12/12 11:31:49 (permalink)
So are you pretty much guaranteed to be on TRT if you've been a long time steroid user?
 
Even if you do a couple of cycles a year and recover each time? Or is that just the beginning and once you've done it for a period of time you don't want to come off?
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thegrimreaper
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Re: 2014/12/12 11:49:17 (permalink)
Biggenz
So are you pretty much guaranteed to be on TRT if you've been a long time steroid user?
 
Even if you do a couple of cycles a year and recover each time? Or is that just the beginning and once you've done it for a period of time you don't want to come off?




No not at all, some people can do 50 cycles and their natural testosterone production will come back online afterwards and they may have normal levels that were present before testosterone use.
 
Others can do one cycle and do permanent damage to their own endocrine production, and then there are case all of the way in between the two extremes. Everybody is different which is why it is prudent to get a full blood panel done before any AAS use in my humble opinion.
 
Also it has nothing to do with "not wanting to come off". That makes it sound like AAS use can lead to some sort of addiction which is wrong. The reason you may "not want to come off" is because you feel like dog **** when levels that are low and this comes with a whole host of symptoms.
 
As I've eluded to, my own personal situation was my levels were low before any use which got my into using Testosterone. 
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Re: 2014/12/12 12:02:07 (permalink)
thegrimreaper
No not at all, some people can do 50 cycles and their natural testosterone production will come back online afterwards and they may have normal levels that were present before testosterone use.
 
Others can do one cycle and do permanent damage to their own endocrine production, and then there are case all of the way in between the two extremes. Everybody is different which is why it is prudent to get a full blood panel done before any AAS use in my humble opinion.
 
Also it has nothing to do with "not wanting to come off". That makes it sound like AAS use can lead to some sort of addiction which is wrong. The reason you may "not want to come off" is because you feel like dog **** when levels that are low and this comes with a whole host of symptoms.
 
As I've eluded to, my own personal situation was my levels were low before any use which got my into using Testosterone. 




I agree with you in getting bloods done before you do any sort of cycle to know where you're at, but unfortunately it's not that easy in this country. Unless you do it privately, and then it is very expensive.
 
I've done a few oral only cycles and so far I've recovered fine afterwards. These probably don't count as proper cycles as they are classed as very mild. I would however like to do an injectable cycle, but the thought of having to possibly go on TRT one day scares me a little.
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thegrimreaper
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Re: 2014/12/12 12:10:30 (permalink)
Biggenz
thegrimreaper
No not at all, some people can do 50 cycles and their natural testosterone production will come back online afterwards and they may have normal levels that were present before testosterone use.
 
Others can do one cycle and do permanent damage to their own endocrine production, and then there are case all of the way in between the two extremes. Everybody is different which is why it is prudent to get a full blood panel done before any AAS use in my humble opinion.
 
Also it has nothing to do with "not wanting to come off". That makes it sound like AAS use can lead to some sort of addiction which is wrong. The reason you may "not want to come off" is because you feel like dog **** when levels that are low and this comes with a whole host of symptoms.
 
As I've eluded to, my own personal situation was my levels were low before any use which got my into using Testosterone. 




I agree with you in getting bloods done before you do any sort of cycle to know where you're at, but unfortunately it's not that easy in this country. Unless you do it privately, and then it is very expensive.
 
I've done a few oral only cycles and so far I've recovered fine afterwards. These probably don't count as proper cycles as they are classed as very mild. I would however like to do an injectable cycle, but the thought of having to possibly go on TRT one day scares me a little.




It is very easy to get bloods done in this country through the NHS, you just have to be a bit clever when you visit the GP. Suggest you're suffering from low energy, ED, lack of libido, low mood and trouble with concentration and that you're worried about your hormones.
 
Also oral cycles will shut you down and damage the endocrine system, shut down is shut down oral or injectable.
 
In regard to TRT- a man must live with his decisions. There is obviously a risk when running AAS cycles and permanently damaging your own production is one risk, if one can't accept the risk then don't mess with AAS. This is why it scares me that so many kids under the age of 20 are so willing to go and  just jump on steroids even though their own natural testosterone  is at its highest, often they're clueless and AAS is started without much research or thought.
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chris182
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Re: 2014/12/12 12:35:05 (permalink)
I had a blood test for test level before i touched aas, the Dr just said my levels are normal he didn't show me the results but I'll ask for a print out of the old test and the next test I have done and probably post the results on here for some help and understanding from those in the know
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Re: 2014/12/12 15:56:40 (permalink)
I like the advice from P.B. I am saving that.

Ignorance: Reassuringly Expensive.






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Bookerman
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Re: 2014/12/12 16:58:29 (permalink)
chris182
I had a blood test for test level before i touched aas, the Dr just said my levels are normal he didn't show me the results but I'll ask for a print out of the old test and the next test I have done and probably post the results on here for some help and understanding from those in the know



I got told that aswell mate, when I eventually insisted on knowing the result it was 7.6, does my head in the way they seem to think you have no right to know about your own health

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -   George Orwell
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