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The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH.

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Dumbat
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2015/01/28 10:23:12 (permalink)
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The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH.

As a follow up to some of my responses to questions regarding the use of Growth Hormone releasing peptides I have written this explanation of why we use a combination of the two rather than just using GHRPs on their own.
 
The reason for using both GHRP and ModGRF(1-29)
 
A saturation dose of GHRP and GHRH is 1 mcg/Kg of bodyweight.
 
A combination of a GHRP and GHRH (ModGRF(1-29) has a synergistic effect.
Administering a GHRP on its own will only give a low release of Growth Hormone (somatotrophin) from the Anterior Pituitary gland.
Doubling the dose of GHRP will give an exponentially reduced increase in GH release.
Administering doses above  saturation of a GHRP on its own will not get the same result as using the combination of GHRP and GHRH.
Administering acutely high doses of a GHRP will result in reduction of the sensitivity of the Somatroph cells in the Pituitary gland. The Somatroph cells produce the Growth factors  (Somatrophin). GHRH`s do not cause desensitisation of the Somatroph cells. 
This desensitisation does not take place with saturation doses of GHRP and ModGrf(1-29) or relatively low doses (100 mcg) and this combination can be administered for years with no discernible reduction of Growth factor pulse from the Pituitary.
To mimic the desired effects of exogenous HGH , mainly the increased lipolysis*, the peptides can be administered 5 to 6 times a day (every three hours) to stimulate a higher level of systemic IGF. This has other benefits as well (anti-ageing)
 
In summary the most cost effective use of these peptides is to use a combination of GHRP and ModGRF(1-29).
It is most efficient to use a number of saturation doses rather than a single, (higher than saturation) dose.
A number of lower than saturation doses is also more effective than a single high dose.
 
*Note: Using Peptides or exogenous HGH for lipolysis (fat burning) is not an efficient use of HGH.
While it will increase lipolysis: diet and stimulants will have a greater effect.
 
  
post edited by Dumbat - 2015/01/28 10:55:48

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    Dumbat
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/29 18:12:04 (permalink)
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    No one wants to argue with me?  

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    #2
    Medic
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/29 20:13:47 (permalink)
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    Were not married no need to argue for no reason.
    Medic
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    Uriel
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/29 20:32:15 (permalink)
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    Desensitisation seems to be the only downside to using larger amounts of GHRP only. If it doesn't happen at saturation doses or lower, then as long as you spread it out and never pin more than that (and assuming you're not going for maximum effect by using saturation doses of both as often as possible), GHRP alone still seems like the most cost effective option.
     
    For the record this discussion started in another topic, in which I did some math and concluded that at typical market prices you can use 5 times as much GHRP compared to stacking it with GHRH at 1:1 ratio, for the same money. Also seems that adding GHRH doubles the GH spike but 1x2 is still lower than 5x1.
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    Dumbat
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/29 21:03:14 (permalink)
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    Medic
    Were not married no need to argue for no reason.
    Medic




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    Dumbat
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/29 21:13:33 (permalink)
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    Uriel:
    No my post shows that using the combination of both is the most efficient use of these Peptides .
    Using GHRP solely will give  less benefit and is not the most cost effective option.
    I have tried to keep the information as nontechnical as my limited communication abilities allow.
    I can link the relevant scientific study, it took me a number of read throughs to get my head around it.
    I am still very much a student of this subject, although I have been researching for over two years now.
    I am on a limited budget and always look for the most cost effective way of achieving my goals in any interest I have.
    Same with AAS I only use what I believe will give the best result for the least financial out lay, which is the main reason I dont use HGH .
     In no way I am trying to talk down to anyone, I know you have superior knowledge of AAS to me.
    I simply feel that it is important to have the best information available on forums like M.T.
     
    post edited by Dumbat - 2015/01/29 21:19:56

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    Uriel
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/29 21:44:09 (permalink)
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    Dumbat
    Uriel:
    No my post shows that using the combination of both is the most efficient use of these Peptides .
    Using GHRP solely will give  less benefit and is not the most cost effective option.

    Not based on everything I've read so far.
     
    What you're saying is one dose of GHRP plus GHRH is better than one dose of GHRP alone. Which is proven fact, no argument there.
     
    What I'm saying is five doses of GHRP alone are better than one dose of GHRP plus GHRH. If there's anything out there proving otherwise, I haven't seen it yet. All evidence I've seen points to the former producing far more total GH than the latter.
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    Dumbat
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/30 10:38:07 (permalink)
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    O.K. my communication has failed then.
    I will attempt another explanation.
    It is not just about the total "GH".(as I stated before, comparison to HGH is not of much value.)
    The pulses/ ramping from low to high levels of GHRP/GHRH signals processes and effects local and Systemic IGF expression.
    I will prepare a more comprehensive and technical post this weekend. 
     

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    #8
    Dumbat
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/30 11:10:57 (permalink)
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    Uriel
    Desensitisation seems to be the only downside to using larger amounts of GHRP only. If it doesn't happen at saturation doses or lower, then as long as you spread it out and never pin more than that (and assuming you're not going for maximum effect by using saturation doses of both as often as possible), GHRP alone still seems like the most cost effective option.
     
    For the record this discussion started in another topic, in which I did some math and concluded that at typical market prices you can use 5 times as much GHRP compared to stacking it with GHRH at 1:1 ratio, for the same money. Also seems that adding GHRH doubles the GH spike but 1x2 is still lower than 5x1.




    Why wouldn`t one want maximum effect? using low doses of GHRP solely is not worth the effort IMO .
    Saturation doses are the point at which the best benefit is achieved at the lowest dose ie. the most efficient use of these Peptides. Going lower or higher means less benefit return for outlay of money and effort.  
    Again using higher frequency dosing isn`t for "greater effect" as such; it will provide different effects as it will increase systemic IGF as well as local IGF.
    A different approach for different benefits. 
    post edited by Dumbat - 2015/01/30 11:13:52

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    Uriel
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/30 13:57:59 (permalink)
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    As I've said to me it boils down to results, the rest is trivia. One saturation pulse of GHRP+GHRH will produce better results in body composition that five pulses half as pronounced, even though it'll produce far less total GH? I doubt it and have never seen evidence to back that up. If you have it by all means go ahead and share.
     
    Why wouldn't you want maximum effect? Well cost for starters. I could go for maximum effect from AAS, stack a ****load of tren, a ****load of test and a ****load of anadrol, with a ****load of letro and cabergoline to manage the horrendous sides, and spend 500£ a month on gear. Plus GHRP, GHRH, HGH, IGF-1, MGF, Follistatin, insulin, after all if the maximum effect is desired then one would use everything available, plus nutritional supps like creatine, leucine, etc...
     
    I don't go for maximum effect, I just use a moderate amount of anabolics, for which I don't need to use many ancillaries at all, and a few nutritional supplements that are worth paying for, that way still lets me make good gains while spending less than 1/10 as much money.
     
    Very rarely in life is going for maximum effect worth it. It's always about the best compromise.
    post edited by Uriel - 2015/01/30 14:33:10
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    Dumbat
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/30 14:54:22 (permalink)
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    Fair enough you seem determined to stick to your opinion, every one is free to do that.
    But I dont think it is correct to advise others to do the same .
    If someone wants the correct information I will provide it.
    As I have said previously all the correct and unbiased information is available on Datbtrue`s site
    He has provided all the information required for those who wish to educate themselves in order to utilise these peptides in the most effective and cost efficient manner.
    The advise I have given is the most cost effective use of these peptides. 
    We will just have to agree to disagree. 
     Calling it trivia is ridiculous, all the information is relevant and based on real scientific evidence. 
      
    post edited by Dumbat - 2015/01/30 14:58:13

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    Uriel
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/30 21:50:25 (permalink)
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    Dumbat
    The advise I have given is the most cost effective use of these peptides. 
    We will just have to agree to disagree. 

    It's not really a agree to disagree situation, you haven't said anything yet to disprove my point other than "take my word for it". That's not really an argument. I am a member at datbtrue's (althout I'm not a cultist like many members there who take his word as gospel) and I haven't read anything there to prove me wrong either (although obviously I haven't read everything, it goes on forever - which is why I'm perfectly capable of admitting I may be wrong, I just want to see some evidence).
     
    What I mean by trivia is that at the end of the day it doesn't really matter which method produced highest spikes, or most systemic IGF, or most local IGF, or any such factor viewed by itself. What ultimately really matters are the results, the pounds of muscle gained, the pounds of fat lost, the pounds added to the bar. And how much you paid for those results.
    post edited by Uriel - 2015/01/30 21:53:06
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    Dumbat
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/01/31 10:03:23 (permalink)
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    Back to the beginning of our discussion then.
     
    If one is purely concerned with Muscle gain then stick to AAS.
    If one wants to achieve improved muscle mass quality, improved recovery, skin anti-ageing, improved bone density, tendon strength and health, and all the other benefits that elevated HGH levels will bring then look at these options.
    Being aware that Exogenous HGH has some health risks as it elevates Growth hormone levels for prolonged periods of time. Particularly Cancerous tumour trophy ( although not causal )as previously discussed.
    As I have stated several times, a pulsative approach is much less risky and can be more effective.
    I have never stated that HGH elevation will produce greater LBM gains than AAS will. 
    P.S. I am not a Cultist, I take the time to read through the scientific studies and research elsewhere to gain an overall understanding of the Endocrinology. 
    post edited by Dumbat - 2015/01/31 10:14:30

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    #13
    Dumbat
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/02/01 12:21:35 (permalink)
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    I am not permitted to publish to full text here but these studies relate to my point. 
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15126555
    http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jc.2003-031799
    The information is not spelt out in a spoon feeding manner, one has to deduce the relevant information for oneself if the will to learn is present. 
     

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    #14
    Gym Gorilla
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/02/19 23:05:02 (permalink)
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    Dumbat, I know it's not an exact science but do you think adding smaller amounts of cjc (75-100mcg) a day to a cycle of ghrp2 (300mcg a day split) would be anymore beneficial than running ghrp2 solely or at a slightly elevated dose? Cost is a factor and at the moment I don't want to be spending a ton on peptides, seeing nice results from ghrp2 solely but wondered if adding smaller amounts of cjc would be worth it?

    Cheers


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    #15
    Dumbat
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/02/21 11:18:39 (permalink)
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    Yes 40 mcg ModGRF(1-29) will still give a large benefit, in fact a single dose @ saturation level , 80 mcg or so will improve subsequent dose of GHRP. So you could dose the combination at A.M first thing, then dose GHRP on its own for the day time doses. then the combination at bedtime. 
    Also there is no need to use doses above the saturation level especially with the high grade Peptides that TOM produces.
    It is the number of doses that you use each day and using the combination of both  that has more effect than the level of individual does. 
     
    written that in a hurry hope its comprehensible . 
    (Edited for Grammar) 
    post edited by Dumbat - 2015/02/21 14:55:40

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    #16
    mickd
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/07/24 14:23:37 (permalink)
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    hello
    this is all new to me and trying to find out about it.
    am i right in thinking:
    GHRP-2 is taken 3 times a day and dont eat within half an hour after.?
    you need to take for 6 months to benefit.?
    side effect - if cancer is present it escalates the tumour.?
    its better to stack it with another item?
    do you take while on test/eq course or while cruising?
    finally what dose would be ideal for a 100kg subject?
     
    any help greatly apprciated
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    Dumbat
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    Re: The reason why we use a combination of GHRP and GHRH. 2015/09/16 11:47:41 (permalink)
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    GHRP can be taken three times a day.
    One can eat 20 mins post administration.
    Effects can be seen within 2 months, the longer one runs it the better.
    Effects on pre existing tumours is uncertain but the pulsing effect of HGH release is less risky than running exogenous HGH.
    Depending on goals running GHRP alongside AAS will increase overall gains. One can run lower doses of AAS if one is using GHRP.
    Saturation doses are 1 mcg (micrograms)/ Kg body weight.
    So for 100kg bodyweight 100 mcg doses are suitable. 

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