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When does recovery become difficult?

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transform
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2005/07/28 20:29:36 (permalink)
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When does recovery become difficult?

I was just wondering what people think is the most amount of time you can spend on a cycle before it gets to the point that getting yourslef back to pre cycle homeostasis, or basically gettin your natural test levels back up is difficult? The reason being that i was plannin a cycle that was originally gonna be 13 weeks with testE,Dbol and EQ.But iv been told that this would be difficult to recover from and i lose alot of my gains during my recovery period. Personally i thought things only stdarted gettin tricky after 17 or 18 weeks. So now iv decided to do 10 weeks and drop the EQ because i read it has to be used for at least around 12 weeks to get the full benefits from it.

My question is, would recovering from a 13 week cycle really be so much more difficult than a 10 week cycle? Thanks
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    volatile
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 20:34:21 (permalink)
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    If it is your first cycle, why do you need EQ with the test + dbol? surely other ppl can agree with me on this, youll gain **** loads on just test e + dbol

    Not sure about how long you should run your cycle for, but I do know that finishing off with a short acting ester for the test (test prop) will help recovery a lot, also they say if you run your cycle over 8 weeks the use of HCG before PCT does wonders for recovery.


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    transform
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 20:36:06 (permalink)
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    Well, disregarding the EQ, because i think im not gonna use it, would recovery from 13 weeks on test and dbol be harder than recovery from 10 weeks?
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    volatile
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 20:43:33 (permalink)
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    THe thing I always hear is, the longer you are on, the harder it is to recover, ive heard some ppl say they stop gaining or gains really slow down after 8 weeks, I think the best cycle you can do for a good gains - keeping gains ratio would be something like this:

    Test enth 500mg ew 1 - 7
    Test prop 100mg eod 8 - 11
    Dbol 30mg ed 1 - 4

    OR

    Test enth 500mg 1 - 6
    Test prop 100mg eod 7 - 10
    Dbol 30mg ed 1 - 4

    Personally im doing the 2nd one maybe with a frontload on the test,

    Please, im curious to hear other peoples replys
    post edited by volatile - 2005/07/28 20:44:24


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    THE BARBARIAN
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 20:52:09 (permalink)
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    Recovery from one 10 week cycle would'nt be too bad but recovery from two or 3 back to back 10 week cycles would be very hard going. Also recovery from tren and deca is known to be harder than normal. I done a 10 week test and eq cycle as my first cycle and make great gains and recoverd without much of a problem.
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    khany
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 20:54:05 (permalink)
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    anything over 8 weeks and i have a real problem recovering , if i keep to 6 weeks or under my nuts dont shrink and recovery is sweet
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    volatile
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 20:56:27 (permalink)
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    Cheers for that guys, looks like keep the cycles 4 - 10 weeks for best recovery


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    dirtyvest
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 20:57:48 (permalink)
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    10 weeks of test, deca, dbol and winny and I was fine, 6 weeks of tren, prop and winny and I got royally screwed!
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    Backhouse
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 21:07:25 (permalink)
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    Has anyone got a link for the 4 week cycle thread that was put on here a while ago. This explains the short cycle logic really well.
    Volatiles potential cycle is IMO bang on. The initial long ester followed by a short ester in this way means that pct is easier to guage as this time is crucial for maintaing gains.
    Personally i rarely go over 6 weeks. The doses i use are fairly high and the cycles are made up of test,tren, dbol and winnie. I believe in hitting the receptors hard and fast before any negative feedback occurs. Emphasis should then be on pct and maintaining.
    Its seems easy to blow upon these long 12 week+ cycles but very hard to maintain.
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    khany
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 21:15:16 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: Backhouse

    Has anyone got a link for the 4 week cycle thread that was put on here a while ago. This explains the short cycle logic really well.


    not sure if this is the one mate heres a few taken from the darkside uk

    Case study for sceptics of short cycles from universal muscle and SBI.com


    The following is a study that was done by Bill Roberts a few years back in regard to two week cycles.

    MY COMMENTS

    I think that 4 weekers provide the best gains to sides ratio...this has been my personal experience with myself and my clients. Two weekers, properly done, can produce fairly decent gains if doing many in a row, especially 2 "on" 2 "off".

    Note...the very good testosterone level that this fellow in the study showed two weeks after ending the two week cycle has a lot to due with the andriol that he was on at this time.....so with this in mind we cannot draw accurate conclusion in regard to HPTA recovery from this study. We can, however, notice "Jim's" really nice gains in weight and strength during this cycle.....and the guy didn't even do any heavy leg work like squats or leg presses!

    My clients routinely KEEP 5-10 pounds after a well thought out two weeker, if they are not yet at their natural maximum level of muscular developement. This can take many men, that have trained for a few years, up to a year to accomplish without steroids.
    If you are above natural max the gains will be less but you will still gain.

    Keep in mind why short cycles of 6 weeks or less are done...they are NOT done to win titles as a bodybuilder at any level ,but rather to provide for a very safe alternative way to use steroids by limiting time "on" and thus by limiting sides.

    If you are wanting to try short cycles then keep in mind that they will only help to get you to your natural max sooner than via training naturally....much sooner in fact....BUT they will not get you huge. You can get somewhat above natural max but don't expect to win titles even at the state level using roids in this way.

    NOW FOR THE STUDY


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Subject

    Jim is 26 years old and has been training regularly since his teens. I consider him to be an intelligent lifter who has generally followed good training plans and has been reasonably consistent in his training, allowing only a few off weeks every now and then. He probably was fairly close to his natural limit when starting this program – I would not have expected him to be able to gain more than perhaps 3 lb over the next year with natural training. He was in his all-time best condition at the time of starting the program, with his bench press, lean body weight, and bodyfat all at best-ever levels. A year previously, he had done an 8 week cycle with only trenbolone acetate and Primobolan, and had since done two light cycles with only Dianabol. His goals were to reduce bodyfat still further while increasing muscle size and muscularity, and to achieve a "Muscle Media" type of look, suitable for the beach or night clubs, not the competitive stage. Furthermore, because of his job, no drastic sustained gains in bodyweight would be acceptable. Rather, weight gains needed to be fairly moderate but with body composition improvements.

    Thus, the 2-on, 4-off cycle was particularly suitable for Jim. A traditional 8 week cycle such as he had done before would either have been rather ineffective for muscle gains were he trying also to lose fat during the cycle, or would have resulted in excessive weight gain and failure to lose fat (a primary goal) if he ate enough to obtain good muscle growth. The alternating plan allows him to make good gains for two weeks, though not to a suspicious degree if he takes care to dress in loose clothing, and then to lose fat over the next four weeks, and then to repeat the plan as many times as necessary. Furthermore, it will allow good retention of gains, which is important to him, since he does not plan to use steroids indefinitely.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Drug Plan

    The following is, verbatim, the drug plan that Jim wrote out before the cycle began, using articles previously presented on Meso-Rx as his guide (though these are actually presented for informational purposes, not as advice.) Thus far, he has followed it exactly, except that he failed to use 10 mg Dianabol five times per day, but instead took only 5 mg five times per day. I expect that this change probably cost him a couple of pounds of gains.

    A number of abbreviations were used in his plan. "TA" is trenbolone acetate injectable. "D" or "Diana" is Dianabol. "Clo" is Clomid. "Cyt" is Cytadren. "Oxandr" is oxandrolone. The abbreviation "tid" means three times per day.

    Program

    Throughout the first five weeks: 50 mg/day Clo (two capsules), except Day 1 is 300 mg in six divided doses.

    In first two weeks, 200 g/day protein more than usual, but hold fat and carbs moderate enough to avoid significant if any fat gain. In the following four weeks, diet the first three, and diet or use maintenance calories for the fourth, in all cases keeping protein at least 180 g/day.

    Day 1: 100 mg (200 IU) TA in morning. 10 mg D five times per day in divided doses, which might include middle of the night if I awake briefly enough to have a pre-made Met-Rx. Cyt: 125 mg (half tab) on arising and 62.5 mg six and then twelve hours later.

    Days 3-11: 50 mg (100 IU) TA/day, 250 mg Cyt as above, and 50 mg Diana as above.

    Days 12-14: No TA, but otherwise same as days 3-11.

    Weeks 3 and 4: Diana 10 mg on arising, and 10 mg four hours later. Cyt ½ tab on arising, and oxandr 20 mg on arising.

    Week 5: same, but on basis of blood test, Cyt may be dropped if estradiol levels were below normal.

    Week 6: Clean, unless T was not above normal in blood test at end of week 4, in which case Clo use will be continued in week 6.

    Supplement use: In weeks 3-6, Androdiol 300 mg one or 1.5 h before workouts – not in the evening. If in the morning or early afternoon, an additional 300 mg after workout would be okay. Ephedrine and caffeine optional while dieting


    Bodypart / Parameter Starting During week 3 Improvement
    Neck 14 7/8" 15 3/8" 1/2"
    Biceps 15 3/8" 16" 5/8"
    Chest 40 3/8" 41 ¾" 1 3/8"
    Waist 33" 33 ¼" no significant change
    Thigh 22 1/8" 23 1/8" 1"
    Calves 14 7/8" 15 3/8" ½"
    Weight 175 lb 188 lb 13 lb
    % Bodyfat 9.5% (n/a) no significant change
    Seat Mil Press 165 lb 190 lb 25 lb
    Bench Press 260 lb 295 lb 35 lb

    The blood test results were good. Jim started with normal values for testosterone, estradiol, all hepatic function tests, and blood lipid profile. Immediately after the two week point, he had a follow-up test. Everything remained normal except for his blood testosterone, which had dropped from 429 ng/dL to 50 ng/dL (normal range is 240-830 ng/dL), and AST, ALT, and CPK values were elevated – however, this was to be expected and is not harmful, except that of course we would not wish the testosterone level to remain so low but to return to normal quickly. The Clomid and reduction of androgen use to a very light level should allow this to occur, and in fact, Jim reports that towards the end of week 3 he felt as if he had plenty of androgen in his system in the evenings and on arising, though that of course is a subjective evaluation. Testosterone levels should prove normal and preferably higher than the starting value in the blood tests to be done after week 4.

    Estrogen levels remained normal, but were elevated compared to the starting value: from 24.6 pg/mL to 41 pg/mL (normal range: 0-56 pg/mL). This change is of questionable significance: it might be due to difference in measurement, not to any actual increase, or it might represent a small increase from the usage of Dianabol, despite the use of Cytadren as an antiaromatase.

    Cholesterol values did not change substantially, and some parameters were even improved. I attribute this to the use of Clomid, which exerts an estrogenic (not anti-estrogenic) effect with regard to blood cholesterol that is beneficial. (Clomid is anti-estrogenic in some tissues, and estrogenic in others.)

    Total cholesterol was reduced from 170 to 162, triglycerides from 128 to 104, and VLDL from 26 to 16. These changes are beneficial though perhaps insignificantly so. HDL also was reduced, from 26 to 24, and LDL was increased from 118 to 126. These changes are not beneficial, though again the measured changes are so small that they may be insignificant. We may conclude that the two week cycle, with use of Clomid, did not result in any significant worsening of blood lipid profile, and may have resulted in improvement of some parameters. This is in contrast to what is seen with traditional cycles where Clomid is not used and blood lipid profiles usually worsen dramatically.


    Summary

    With two weeks of fairly moderate steroid usage, and one week thus far of light usage which has avoided losses but caused no further gains, Jim has achieved size and strength improvements he is very pleased with. It will take several such cycles, however, for him to meet his ultimate goals. (No one can really expect that just two weeks of use, alone, will effect a complete transformation.) Jim’s results from two weeks of moderate use are probably more than he could have obtained in four years without any drug use, that estimate being made based on his previous experiences.

    Blood test results are good, although we need to see if testosterone levels return to normal or above normal during the next two weeks, as expected. It will also be interesting to see if the elevated liver enzyme values (which are harmless and to be expected) will remain the same, or will be reduced as a consequence of using orals only in the morning.

    Over the next three weeks, Jim hopes to lose a few pounds of fat while maintaining all or nearly all of his muscle gains. In my opinion, however, if he loses two pounds of bodyweight for each pound of fat lost, that result would be quite typical and would be good, and his gains are sufficient to accommodate that.


    UPDATE

    Jim has succeeded in retaining his strength gains, and even on improving his bench press, and has lost as little weight from his peak as could be expected (5 lb) considering that he lost ¾ inch from his waist in weeks 3 and 4. Overall he is now 8 lb heavier with a waist that is a half inch smaller, which probably represents a loss of about three pounds of bodyfat. I certainly hope that Jim will get a skinfold measurement at the end of week 6 to further quantitate these results.

    He suffered no observed side effects except increased acne and a slight increase in irritability during the two "on" weeks, which might also have been caused by increased stress he was under at the time. Even blood pressure, which often rises during a cycle, remained normal at all times.

    Here are the results so far:

    Bodypart/Parameter Starting Week 2 Week 4
    Weight 175 188 183
    Waist 33 33 ¼ 32 ½
    Bench Press 260 295 305
    Military Press 165 190 190
    Testosterone 429 50 529

    Furthermore, all of his blood cholesterol parameters were improved from the starting values, though perhaps insignificantly, and all liver values were normal (although CPK was not checked this time). That is despite the use of oral 17-alkylated anabolics: 20 mg/day each of Dianabol and oxandrolone. This I think is attributable to the dosing pattern of use only in the morning, a protocol I learned from a certain Greek physician.

    I’d hope that his waist will be down to 32" by the end of week 6, and that the next cycle will see him with a bench of 325 or better and military press of over 200 at the 4 week point. By the end of the six week point of the second cycle, he should have a 31 or 31.5" waist with bodyweight of 183-188. So, Jim, the gauntlet has been laid down: go to it!


    Week 6 of Jim’s cycle has ended, but although he is very eager to start another cycle and experience some more gains, he needs to take a week or two off. In an effort to cut up, he foolishly played basketball for a couple of hours per day every day for some time during his off weeks, and injured his knees in the process. Besides this, he also came down with the flu in Week 5, and ran out of Adipokinetix. So he wants to delay his pictures and bodyfat measurement for another week so that he can be more cut, and delay the start of the next cycle until his knees are better. This should take about a week.

    Since various readers wrote in and proclaimed his legs to be a Federal "disaster area," Jim does not want to go into the cycle unable to do serious leg workouts. Furthermore he is going to get some more reasonable shorts so we can scrutinize improvements in the legs a little more closely.

    On a serious note: actually, this bad-luck experience illustrates an advantage of the 2 on / 4 off cycle. All too often, in traditional cycles, an athlete feels he has too much invested in the cycle and has pinned so much hope on it that he cannot let an injury stop him. All too often, he will decide to "train through the pain," and all too often will wind up with a lifetime nagging injury from this decision. It just isn’t too unusual for things to happen in life that mess up our plans. Since one only gains two weeks at a time in this system, it’s much more forgiving of problems such as this. A setback doesn’t "ruin everything" but only introduces a brief delay.

    Next cycle, training will be similar to the first, except that weights will be about 10% heavier and shrugs will be added to the program. The drug program will be somewhat different also. Jim is thinking either of contributing to scientific knowledge by continuing to use 50 mg/day trenbolone acetate but substituting 100 mg/day testosterone propionate for the 50 mg/day Dianabol so that a direct comparison may be made; or he may just go for the gains, saying the heck with science, and keep the Dianabol in there while adding the testosterone propionate.

    We also will probably have salivary tests tracking the recovery of testosterone production, to see if it is largely back at the end of week 3 and to see if it is even higher in week 5 than in week 4. These things were not tested last time.


    posted by realgains..cutting edge muscle

    Steroids for health-SHORT CYCLES Explained
    I would like to explain the benefits of short cycles for the recreational lifter, and that includes 95% of us I think. I would also like to clear up a few misconceptions in regard to short cycles in general.

    WHAT MAKES A CYCLE SHORT

    Short cycles are steroid cycles that do not exceed 4 weeks ,with 2-3 weeks "on" preferred.

    WHY DO SHORT CYCLES

    The main reason is to limit the negative health impact that steroids DO have on users.
    For those of you that don't get lab work done while on steroids I would have you know that steroid use causes a very bad shift in the lipid profile. HDL(good cholesterol) which acts like a sticky sweeping broom to sweep up bad LDL (bad cholesterol) and prevent plaque build up on atery walls, goes EXTREMELY LOW in, dare I say, ALL MEN. Not only this but LDL levels usually climb and this is combo is not good.
    Short cycles still cause a crappy lipid shift but not to the same degree as the long cycle. Also less time "On" means less time for potential aterial plaque build up.
    After my last long cycle of 8 weeks I had some blood work done and my doc HAD A COW as my hdl to total cholesterol ratio was extremely poor.

    There isn't a damn thing you can do to significantly avoid this....you can take niacin , flax oil , do cardio and have a pefect diet low in saturated fat and you will STILL get a very ****ty lipid profile.

    So a very bad lipid profile with high ldl and rock bottom hdl is a SIGNIFICANT risk factor for aterial plaque build up and heart disease. As a side....anyone that thinks "Arny" only got his aortic valve done doesn't have a clue. I know for a fact that he had a coronary bypass as I have worked with members of the heart team that did his operation.

    True there are other risk factors for heart disease but this is a big one and well documented as well.

    HEW!!! Next ...short cycles limit other side effects like hair loss, acne, high Blood pressure and resulting kidney stress, testicular shrinkage and poor HPTA rebound.

    Also short cycles are a heck of a lot easier on the old liver especially if 17aa orals are used....got to love d-bol he he he !

    WHAT SHORT CYCLES ARE NOT

    Short cycles will not result in bigger gains. Short cycles will not allow one to be competive in todays national level competitions. Short cycles will not give you 30 pounds of bulk at one time.

    WHAT SHORT CYCLES CAN DO

    Short cycles can give you decent gains that are FAR better than what you could attain to as a natural. Gains of 10 pounds are not infrequently kept form a short cycle with the novice or those that are not at least very close to their natural maximum weight.

    Short cycles will allow a much quicker HPTA recovery than a long cycle and this allows one to kepp a higher percentage of ones gains. In fact full testosterone rebound often happens in but a week. Gains often continue in the weeks after the short cycle is over simply because ones natural test production often jumps a little higher than normal becuase the pituitary really hammers out the LH and the testes have not shunk.
    My natural test production is quite good for a man of 40, at 550. I tested my test level a week after I stopped a 14 day cycle and it had rebonded to 650 from the immediate pre cycle 550. On day 15 it was down to 54!

    How many of you bro's have experience gains AFTER coming off a 8 weeker...not a one I would say.

    Lets face it bro's if you gain 25 -30 pouns of bulk in a long cycle you sure the hell aren't going to be able to hang onto more than 15 of those pounds over the next 6 months unless you were WAY WAY under your potential to begin with.

    BEFORE DOING SHORT CYCLES.....

    learn how to train and gain WITHOUT steroids. This is critical! IF one knows how to train without gear then adding a small amount of gear over a short period of time can result in great gains.
    Trouble is almost nobody knows how to gain without steroids so they do the large doses over long periods of time to compensate for their chronic over training and poor training, habits.

    ORIGIN OF SHORT CYCLES AND VARIATIONS

    Well I am sure that there have always been men that used short cycles but the first one that I know of that actually spoke up on the matter was NELSON MONTANA, formerly of T-MAG.

    NELSON MONTANA advocated, and still does advocate, cycles of 3 weeks in length. Modest doses are used of 1000mg per week TOTAL or less. Injectables and orals are used. Usually the injectable is in a long acting ester and not injected once per week but several times per week in smaller doses as he belives this is better for anabolism. Nelsons favorite steroid is PRIMO but he does like sust, d-bol, winny and anavar. He will not use or recommend vet steroids like EQ or tren. He does not recommend nandrolone.

    Nelson believes three weeks will offers the best trade off between gains and sides. He thinks two weeks "on" is not quite enough time "on"
    His favorite combo's are sust/d-bol or primo/anavar.

    Here is an example of Nelsons three weeker.

    WEEK ONE
    DAY ONE sust 250mg, day 3 primo 100mg, day 5 primo 100mg, day 7 primo 100mg. 25 of d-bol in divided doses per day.

    WEEK TWO
    Test cyp or enanthate 100mg, day 10 primo 100mg and day 12 primo 100mg, day 14 primo 100mg. 25 of winny per day

    WEEK THREE
    day 16 primo 100, day 18 primo 100, day 20 primo 100 and day 22 primo 100 and also anavar 25 per day

    Notice how the cycle uses weaker orals as the weeks go on and the non aromatizable and weker primo . This is to limit inhibition to some degree AND also to limit water gain for good post cycle lean tissue realization

    WEEK FOUR ...OPTIONAL
    25 of proviron for 5 days and only in the am. This is to help with sex drive, prevent estrogen back lash and act as a mild form of a taper. 25 mg only done in the am is not very inhibitory. I like its ability to ward off estrogen rebound post cycle.

    Nelson does not believe that clomid is necessary after his cycles and may actually cause harm in some men.

    The above is a complicated cycle that is not cheap but Nelson thinks it is the ultimate short cycle. Similar but cheaper short cycle s can be based on the MONTANA METHOD.

    IN COMES BILL ROBERTS!!!

    Now Bill Roberts has been preaching short cycles for some time know, but not as long as Nelson. He says that he was taught his method but a Greek physicain that trains athletes in Europe. It is strange that he never even mentions Nelson and his method and this tells me that he may have stolen the idea from Nelson in the first place.

    Anyway Roberts recommends higher doses of strickly short acting injectables and powerful orals. Front loading injectables is recommended.
    Roberts is a big believer in clomid post cycle. He also believes in using HCG if cycles are long or less than 4 weeks are taken between repeated two week cycles ,so as to prevent testicular shrinkage and the resulting poor HPTA recovery.

    Roberts believes that after two weeks the pituitary becomes inhibited and not just the testes and hypothalamus and thus he recommends 14 days "on" as the limit IF you are striving for very rapid HPTA recovery.

    I have used the "Roberts" cycles with good success as have many others including a few of my close friends but I plan on trying Nelsons method soon.

    ROBERTS EXAMPLES


    Day one, tren front loaded at 150mg and then tren 75 mg per day through day 12.
    Dbol 50 mg per day in divided doses through day 14.
    Clomid therapy starting day 15 and for 4 weeks or three weeks if clomid was used as an anti estrogen during the "on" weeks. He will also use estrogen inhibitors if aromatization is expected to be high.

    Second example for the larger man...
    Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100-150mg per day for 11 days. Tren 150mg per day on day one and then 50-75 per day for 12 days, winstrol 50 mg per day for 14 days.

    Other combo's include Tren/winny., test/d-bol winny., Tren/winny /d-bol....etc etc..

    Notice that no long acting injectable is used. This is done to allow for a very rapid post cycle elimination of androgens so as to prevent additional lengthening of the cycle. This is Key point in the Roberts two weeker because he believes that any time "on" past two weeks will not allow for the most rapid HPTA recovery. He goes so far as to say that recovery after three week "on" is not especially quicker than recover after 8 weeks "on"

    Roberts sites many examples of 7-10 plus pounds kept from his two weekers.

    The man that is above his natural max weight (ie: 5'9-10 " and a leanish 190) cannot expect to gains 10 pounds in two weeks but 5 pounds in not uncommon.

    NOTE>>> Both Roberts and Montana recommend at least 4 weeks off between these cycles. Roberts does say that two weeks off can be okay, but if repeated two weekers are done then HCG should be used during the cycle at 500iu's per day to prevent testicular shrinkage over the months.

    So try short cycles if you are really concerned about your health and want to minimize the risks of steroid use, yet still wish to use steroids , and if you want to keep a higher percentage of your gains from a cycle.

    Good luck and I hope this clears a few things up

    posted by REALGAINS again

    2 week cycles HOW & WHY
    I decided to try 2 week cycles after reading about them in Mesorx.com and T-mag.com. Bill Roberts got the idea from a Greek doctor and strength/ athletic coach.
    I am tired of my VERY crappy lipid profiles while "on" traditional cycles and have decided to stick to 2 week cycles and moderate 8 weeks cycles with mild non 17aa roids AAS like EQ.. and maybe low doses test.

    Bill Roberts posts a study done on "Jim" at mesorx.com that showed very favorable results and no sides effects to speak of.

    WHY DO VERY SHORT CYCLES

    Short cycles, properly done, WILL give decent results, not huge results but pretty good none the less.
    These cycles will interest the very health conscious, those that wish to reduce their steroid use, and the paranoid newbie. They would also appeal the "athlete" looking for some extra stength, size and speed.
    Those that get really messed up lipid profiles while "on" longer cycles should also consider very short cycles.
    They are NOT for the highly competitive bodybuilder BTW.

    Bill Roberts has noted that liver enzymes do not elevate much at all, even while using 50 of d-bol per day, and lipid profiles do not change much. Also the very short time "on' would negate the adverse affects of a poor lipid profile IMHO.
    Also Roberts has discussed how the pituitary is not shut down after only 14 days "on" and is even hypersensitive to GnRH form the hypothalamus and thus natural test recovery is very rapid.
    Testicular shrinkage is not an issue with 2 week cycles so the testes respond very well to LH post cycle.
    So the testes do stop putting out test but recovery is very rapid.

    Roberts also points out that "Jim", in his study on Mesorx.com ,had his test levels come back slightly higher than his normal after a week of clomid therapy.
    I have noticed that test recovery is indeed VERY rapid post cycle and I seem to be able to continue with gains in strength post cycle. Perhaps this is due to a hyper-responsive pituitary.

    How many of you have been able to gain well post cycle with clomid after a traditional long cycle...I suppose none really.


    HOW TO DO THEM

    Hormone levels need to be high right out of the gate with 2 week cycles as we have no time to wait/waste. With that in mind one needs to limit the choice of hormones to those that are in very rapid acting form. Clearance needs to be rapid as well and these "fit the bill". If clearance is not rapid then you are actually "on' for longer than two weeks and the super rapid test recovery may be impossible. After two weeks the pituitary seems to become inhibited as well as the hypothalamus and testes.
    Also we need to use powerful androgens to see best results.

    This leaves OUT Deca, EQ, Test cyp/enanthate/sust and the like.
    Good choices are Test prop, Tren, winstrol and all the powerful orals like d-bol.

    Front loading is important.

    Examples.

    test prop at 300mg on day one and then 100-125 per day through day 11 and then stop. Tren at 150 on day one and then 75-80 per day through day 12 and then stop. Clomid on day 15 and for 4 "off " weeks.

    Tren as above and d-bol 50mg per day in 4-5 divided doses through day 14 and then clomid on day 15.

    OR tren/winstrol/
    OR test/d-bol
    There are many combo's

    Larger doses can be used by those that are above their natural max weights.

    WHAT TO EXPECT
    Well the man that is well above his natural maximum weight cannot expect much but can keep a very solid 3-4 pounds of pure muscle. I have kept 5 pounds however.
    For those that are not yet at their natural max weight (5'9" and a lean 190...adding 7 pounds for every inch above 5'9") A keeping gain of up to 8-10 pounds can be achieved as long as training, diet and rest are spot on. Jim at mesorx.com kept about 9 pounds I believe and lots of strength, and he didn't even do heavy leg work!
    With these 2 weekers your seem to keep a higher percentage of the gain and this is likely due to very rapid natural test recovery.

    One can be "on" two week cycles all year round pretty safely as long as 4-6 weeks off are taken between cycles. You could do 2 "on" 2 "off" but I would suspect that some testicular shrinkage would results after a few cycles so if you want to do this then take HCG at 500iu's per day while "on"





    from anabolicextreme.com
    INITIAL THOUGHTS ON SHORT CYCLING
    by MuscleTrainee



    Background:
    I began BBing with a trainer from Germany. In educating me, he related to me that, in his time BBing there, European BBers were relatively without American influence. Common practice called for the use of short half-life ester injectables, the variety of which was much greater than exists today, combined with mild orals like Anavar and Winstrol and, sometimes, Dbol. Short cycles (2-4 weeks) were also the norm. Most interesting, use of test was very uncommon, and considered a horror. What was commonly used was Parabolan, what we, today, call Trenbolone. Eight week cycles were virtually unheard of, and the desire to pack on 20-40 pounds in such a short time was unthinkable. European BBers took a much more unhurried pace of growth. Young, competitive BBers were very much smaller than those found in the US, today, due to this orderly pace of growth. It was only the very rare, genetically unusual BBer who was big at a young age. Europeans simply had a different outlook and different standards.


    IAN: Yes, within 5 months I was using 200 lbs for like 14 reps.

    Early on, my trainer lamented the situation he found in the US: heavy dependence upon test, long halflife esters used in long cycles, gross overeating, poor estrogen suppression, acceptance of high body fat percentages, and excessive lean body mass development in short time spans. He was horrified at what he envisioned would be the long term consequences of widespread use of these practices. He was associated with IFBB pros, like Zhur, el Sonbaty, Schlierkamp, and Ruhl, while in Europe. He was well aware of the health complications associated with extreme muscularity. He kept reiterating "BBing is a sport for life".

    While still a natural, I began to examine how an entire philosophy of AAS use might be developed, based upon the European experience. By the time it was appropriate for me to begin AAS, years later, I already had a plan. Initially, I quietly used myself as a lab rat. The results became quite visible, and, before too long, questions followed. My trainer asked that we work together, to develop a new way for his athletes to grow. And here we are.....

    Characteristics of AAS:
    There are two clearly discernable characteristics of interest to BBers. Anabolic: muscle growth/hypertrophy. and Androgenic: strength, aggression, fat burning. Most AAS possess these two characteristics in varying ratios, and in various strengths. For example, Halotestin may be seen to produce a pure androgenic response, but no anabolic response. Deca, on the other hand, will produce anabolism with no significant androgenic response. Test produces roughly a 50 percent anabolic response, and 50 percent androgenic response. Then there is strength of response. Winstrol is a moderate, pure anabolic. Anavar is a moderate, pure androgen. Trenbolone is a very powerful androgen (80 percent of total response), much more powerful than the androgenic characteristics of test. Tren's anabolic characteristic (20 percent of total response), is weaker than that of test. And so on. I have built a complete table of response characteristics of all the AAS components we use.


    "In a stunning scoop that has shaken bodybuilding to its core, we have convinced six of the current Top 20 professional bodybuilders in the world to reveal every detail of their drug and steroid regimens… What does this mean for you? Every bodybuilder who's ever stepped inside a gym has wondered what it is that separates the guys who lift for years and years (and get big, but not that big)... and the monsters that win the big professional contests. It isn't genetics that accounts for the incredible difference in size... and it isn't training or nutrition…"

    Site injection and localized growth:
    Time and time again, we have seen localized growth response to site injected, esterless and short halflife AAS. I no longer accept that a positive response is anecdotal. It's just too commonplace, in my own work. Consequently, we no longer waste gear in glutes and quads. We identify and then site inject any and all lagging body parts, in a rotating injection program. And we have seen some startling responses. In nearly every case, we prefer tren and an esterless AAS, for the most powerful response. There must be weak-, or non-responders, but I have yet to find any. I owe much, in this particular area, to the work of Paul Borreson.


    The Oxford English dictionary defines the term somatotype as the "The physique of an individual as expressed numerically in terms of the extent to which it exhibits the characteristics of each of three extremes (the endomorph, mesomorph, and ectomorph)." So for example, a person exhibiting extreme mesomorphy might be assigned the numerical cocktail of 2-7-1. What does this mean?

    Cycle design:
    Cycles are assembled by, first, determining the end response characteristics desired, and assembling components whose AAS characteristics interlock together to produce that end response with a minimum of overlap, over the cycle time span desired. Consider this cycle: Nandrolone phenylpropionate (EOD), tren (EOD), Winstrol (ED), optional Anavar (ED). I've remarked, elsewhere, on the desirability of pairing tren with Winstrol. We require the use of a pure androgen for EVERY cycle, to insure ongoing muscle definition, density, and post cycle androgenicity, so Anavar is our choice for this cycle. Here, Tren is our primary androgen, and nandrolone our primary anabolic. All of these agents are selected for their lack of water retention. All are either short acting or esterless, so that meets our requirements for site injection. And, yes, we do site inject it all. We begin by frontloading the estered injectables, up to three days before cycle day zero, and add the orals and esterless injectables at cycle day minus one. On cycle day zero, the AAS is already active, with blood levels increasing. We end the injectables and orals, suitably in advance of the end of the cycle, so that, on cycle day 15, the AAS is non-inhibitory, and HTPA recovery begins immediately. Add on 14 days further system recovery, and then a cycle can begin anew. Seven weeks, total. Over a year, this might be accomplished seven times. When HCG, and an anti-e at suitable dosage, is added to the Clomid, the HTPA may be recovered in only 2 weeks. This shortens the next cycle availability point by one week.

    Yes, it's a lot of injections. And the Winstrol hurts.

    What might be expected, in the way of results? Bulking, we have seen as much as 10 pounds lbm. Average is five pounds. Over a year, that's 35 pounds. You say, "Hell, I can grow that much in 8 weeks". I say, let's see how many times a year you can accomplish that, and over how many years do you think you will continue to accomplish that? We have this steady, measured growing, going on and on. My guess is that this approach, using only a modest bulking diet, rather than the typical American pig-out bulking diet, can be accomplished for years and years. Due to short cycle length and rational diet design, there is very little fat gain. No pressing need to cut. No need to look like the typical big, smooth BBer, who only looks cut once a year. Our people are lean, defined, and feel healthy, all the time. They only spend two weeks cycling, while seven (or six), clean. And, since they get normalized quickly, they can train and grow natural, more quickly, because there is none of the weeks and weeks of getting that slow AAS out of their systems. The BBer doing the typical 8 week long acting ester cycle exists for weeks in a kind of limbo, where the blood levels are not high enough for anabolism, but are still inhibitory, and he must wait all that extra time. My people are off, longer than they are on. Their bodies free of drugs, all that time.



    We tend to avoid test. Not completely; just most of the time. What we found is that, anytime you use test, it magnifies the sides of whatever you use with it. Tren, used in rational dosages, is relatively free of sides, and causes fewer overall sides during cycles. We use tren, like the typical BBer uses test. With tren, you get much more response, with much lower dosages, with greater androgenic intensity. Someone once wrote that tren was "the gear of the gods". Indeed, the Europeans brought to BBing AAS, a very great gift. We do use test, but only for very specialized purposes.




    We only use one type of eight week bulk cycle. That for Boldenone, which now can only be obtained in a very long halflife ester. We are working with a supplier, and are patiently awaiting him to provide us with our first esterless Boldenone. Testing will begin immediately afterwards, to develop new dosage and protocols, following which, we expect to end our use of nandrolone phenylpropionate. Too many of our clients exhibit some degree of bloat from progesterone aromatization, emerging from the nandrolone. We consider any bloat, from any origin, entirely unacceptable, on health and esthetic grounds.

    Body fat gain on cycles:
    Ever notice how productive of muscle a cycle usually is, during the first four weeks, and how it slows down and body fat accumulates during the second four weeks? You end up eating more in the attempt to return things to the former rate. More body fat. Finally, the whole process slows down for good. What's going on? The common explanation is that you are getting bigger, so that requires more nutrition. We say no. We say the body realizes what is going on, it exhausts and compensates, and body metabolism and developmental processes simply will no longer support this process. But you continue to eat. And that food has got no place else to go, but be turned into fat, with unproductive lbm production.


    What's infinitely more interesting than Sheldon's view on somatotype permanency, is his assertion that somatotype and temperament are somehow intertwined. I'll use the example of a mesomorph's temperament because it leads to an amusing corollary involving Arnold Schwarzenegger.

    Our short cycle designs, whether for 2, 3, or 4 weeks features tren, as a foundation, which is a potent fat burner, due to powerful androgenicity, and will not aromatize to estrogen. And a diet, which is clean, and appropriately sized for rational lbm gain, while minimizing conversion to fat. Later, the body is clean of AAS, and primed for most sensitive and effective response, before the cycle begins. The conversion from nutrition to muscle takes place under optimum conditions, at low body fat levels. The AAS ramp-up is swift and full, and the cycle ends before the system can desensitize and cause spillover of nutrition to body fat.

    Estrogen pileup is another cause of body fat accumulation, during the typical 8 week, long halflife ester cycle. I suggest that readers visit the AE zine Issue 46, and download the blood concentration calculator from the excellent article on blood concentration of various halflife esters of AAS. Then, plug in your long halflife ester cycle components, and witness the startling blood level concentrations of what you are injecting, late in the cycle. Using the typical paltry anti-e dosages of the typical BBer, is it any wonder that, late in the cycle, estrogen levels build up out of control, and body fat follows?

    Estrogen and anti-e:
    It is an obsolete belief that estrogen is necessary in any cycle. Indeed, ANY amount of estrogen is BAD in any cycle! There is not one study which supports the notion. But the idea lived on in yet another obsolete notion; that water weight is good weight, in a cycle. That, water introduced into the muscle, causes increased lifts, and by lifting heavier, greater growth is obtained. The experts would purposely advise minimal amounts of anti-estrogen drugs, only to minimize the chance of gyno, but to insure lots of this, supposedly, desirable water weight. On the AE boards, I have witnessed these experts advising NO anti-e's, but only to have some Nolvadex at hand, to deal with gyno, should it appear. Not only do you end up with fake strength and fake muscle size, but, at the same time, the estrogen buildup causes high blood pressure, electrolyte imbalance, and a host of health issues. There is water buildup in the lower back to the extent that posts frequently document BBers in pain, cramps, and difficulty, attempting deads. The champions of this approach say "Oh just take some ibuprofen, and you will be just fine". Try asking your liver what it thinks about that approach. Following the cycle, the water disappears, along with the strength and size it fooled the user into believing was real muscle. This often causes depression, and chases the user into a course of creatine, to re-introduce that fake size and strength. The muscle character appears smooth, and the density is poor. When the BBer diets down, all this is lost, and the truth is seen. It's no wonder that certain other experts advise that BBers never come off AAS, so this scenario may never be exposed for what it is: a rollercoaster of reality versus water weight. I agree with them. It is not healthy to run back and forth between lost size and fullness caused by water weight. But it also is not a good thing to stay on AAS, all the time, either. This is a totally brain dead approach to AAS use. And the BBer who engages in it never attains the quality, defined physique he deserves. It's just a lot of smooth water weight and high body fat.

    And body fat. Everyone should know that the presence of excess estrogen causes fat deposition. The greater and the longer the exposure to elevated levels of estrogen, the greater the body fat accumulation. Endos, listen up; stay away from any situation which creates elevated estrogen levels. Everyone, listen up; it is OBSOLETE cycle technology to enable anything but minimal levels of estrogen, at any time. Estrogen is evil, and it is NOT your friend. Using anti-e's cannot reduce estrogen to levels below which the male body cannot function properly. It requires very little estrogen to function, and no anti-e removes it all.

    What to do? Begin, with an entirely different approach. Say that ANY water weight is BAD weight. That estrogen must be banished, to the fullest rational extent. And that the muscle you grow and see is, in fact, muscle, and not water. That the muscle produced will be dense and well defined. A quality physique. How, then does one obtain that increased strength, which the water provided, to enhance growth during the cycle? As stated, we first kill off the estrogen and bloat. Second, we emphasize the introduction of powerful androgens into the cycle structure. I am speaking, once again, of tren and anavar. Together, these components make you VERY strong. And with NO bloat or estrogen required. The concentrated androgenicity encourages intense, aggressive workouts, while also encouraging fat burning. It is very commonplace to observe body recompositions during such cycles. In other words, you get big and lose body fat, simultaneously. The androgenicity also produces significantly increased muscle density and definition. At cycle end, what you end up with, is the real deal. Solid muscle, growth, and increased definition. No need to rush to the nearest container of creatine to stem your losses. And that strength is yours, to keep. And no test.....

    Now, go back to that blood concentration calculator, and compare the blood concentrations of the typical 75 mg EOD of tren, to what you were subjecting yourself to, with that long halflife ester cycle. No stress caused by estrogen pileup, either. Now, you tell me which alternative is better.

    What do we use to suppress estrogen? Well, we formerly used Arimidex. Arimidex is now an antique for us. We use Femara. We prefer one 2.5 mg tab ED. Our clients are kept dry as a bone. We will begin to study Aromasin, in mid-September. Aromasin utilizes a different approach to Estrogen control, which promises to be even more powerful than Femara. But research indicates that IGF-1 production is not suppressed by Femara, but may, in fact, be enhanced by it. We do not see that with Aromasin. Time and experimentation will tell.

    Most importantly, we keep our people on anti-e, post cycle, during the HTPA recovery process, and later. This both speeds recovery of the HTPA, as well as minimizing fat buildup, while hormone levels fluctuate wildly.

    Androgenicity and quality:
    BBers commonly justify their long cycles by saying that they need the long cycle to enable "consolidation". They observe that this effect only occurs late in the cycle. Why is this? It's because the androgen level of the Sustanon test, typically used, takes that long to pile up and affect the muscularity of the BBer. But what about Trenbolone? Almost without fail, users commonly report density and hardening to appear within a few weeks. Why is this? Because the androgenic response of tren is so much more powerful than that of test. You can get this response to produce quality muscle at dosages of only 75 mg EOD, in less than a month. In a Sustanon test, it takes many weeks to accumulate an immense blood concentration, to achieve the same result. It is commonplace to observe tren users burning fat, while they cycle. Sust users never report this effect. Why? Once again, the androgenic response of tren is so much greater than that of test. Intense androgenicity induces fat burning. If Anavar is added, the androgenicity effect is intensified, still further.

    Ever hear of the term "muscle maturity"? It describes muscle which is dense and defined. The commonly accepted belief is that it takes years and years to acquire this muscle characteristic. But why? Because, using test, the exposure to the muscle hardening androgenicity only occurs for about two weeks in the typical long cycle. And that cycle can only be repeated a few times a year. In the tren/anavar-based short cycle, the exposure to muscle hardening androgenicity occurs for longer periods, and the cycle can be repeated many times a year. "Muscle maturity", and quality, appears with rapidity, and not with years and years. I see muscle quality in only one year of regular short cycling, which I never see in the typical long cycle BBer, unless it occurs for years. Which would you prefer?

    The issue of health:
    There are those who say the typical American method of cycling, using long acting ester cycles, for 8 weeks or more, and eating 7-8000 calories per day, for all that time, is no danger to health. To that, I say this: in the millions of years of human evolution, at no time, ever, has the male of our species been exposed to the barrage of hormonal, metabolic, and developmental pressure and manipulation, as occurs during the long acting ester eight week cycle. Do you really believe our bodies were engineered and evolved to deal with this attack, as well as the stress of being forced to add 20-40 pounds of lbm and body fat in this same time span, over and over, again? Don't be a fool. If you believe so, then you are whistling past the cemetery. And there are additional fools, who would have you believe that staying on this course, continuously, can do you no harm. There is currently an unprecedented, uncontrolled lab experiment, taking place all over the world, with thousands of men as lab rats. The long term outcome cannot be predicted by anyone, today. True, every single one of us will die, someday. My people and I have no intention of hastening the arrival of that inevitable day, just to look big in a coffin, as we are laid to our eternal rest. What the hell is YOUR hurry? And, what if you don't die? What if you are forced to leave your beloved sport, and spend the rest of your days, living with hypertension and heart damage due to tachycardia? And kidney damage caused by the hypertension. And still other health issue possibilities. Is this any way to live? It's a personal value judgment and risk assessment process. Step back for a moment, and re-evaluate your position and priorities.

    The end game:
    One other matter, which few consider. Everyone has a genetically pre-programmed maximum of lbm, which their body will support, regardless of whether you reach it via AAS. The faster you approach it, the sooner your gains will decline, no matter how much juice you cycle, and how often you cycle it. You will end up spending money, juicing larger quantities of gear, and stressing your body, for diminishing returns. Finally, you are tapped out. All the slin, growth hormone, IGF-1, and whatever else you toss at it, will never get you past that limit. In a minority of individuals, they will attain immense lbm gains, over time. The rest of us, face the remainder of our BBing careers, re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. All we accomplish is staying right where we are, until we leave the sport in frustration.

    BBing is a sport for life. Why exhaust yourself and your body, in a hurry to arrive at the end of the journey, earlier than you need to? I'm 48 years old, and I look forward to growing and growing, for as long as I remain in the sport. We have a 65 year old client, who last competed 11 years ago. We did a few short cycles with him, dieted and prepped him, and he walked away with a second prize trophy, healthy and happy. Have any of you ever considered that you might still be able to lift and compete at that age? You better forget it, if all you can think of is slamming on endless pounds, today and tomorrow. Your time in BBing will either end in poor health, or the frustration of having reached your limit, and going no further.

    Summary:
    I have presented, above, only the most basic introduction to my philosophy and approach to short cycling, and offered only a simple example out of a program which I spent years developing. I have devised an entire series of special-purpose cycles, each of which embody most, if not all, of the above principles.

    The purpose of the short cycle is to employ moderate dosages of short halflife ester and esterless injectable and oral AAS, combined with moderate and healthy diet, to promote moderate stress anabolic growth, over time. This same process results in very high quality muscle production, which only increases with each cycle, and minimal health impact. It assumes a long term outlook. It is intended for the mature and rational BBer, who expects to remain in the sport for the rest of his life. If you truly love BBing, you never want to leave, and you want to keep your interest and grow, then consider how the short cycle might be what you need for your future in our beloved sport.





    SHORT CYCLES good gains-less sides

    REALGAINS
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    As many of you already know I have had decent success with short cycles. I, along with some of my friends and clients, have had good results with cycles as short as 14 days long.

    I no longer do cycles longer than 4-6 weeks as I am simply sick of the sides that build up after 4-6 weeks and I no longer feel comfortable walking around with a ****ty lipid profile for months on end.


    WHAT QUALIFIES AS SHORT

    "In my book" any cycle 6 weeks or less is a short cycle. Personally I now think that 4 weekers give the best gains to sides ratio.

    You can do 2 weeks "on" 2-4 weeks "off"
    You can do 4 weeks on and 4-6 weeks off
    Or you can do 6 weeks on with 6-8 weeks off.
    4 weeks on and 4 weeks off, year round, gives excellent results and you are only "on" half the year.

    WHY DO THEM

    #1.
    If you are one of those bro's that does longer cycles, of say 10-12 weeks or more, and then wisely takes an equal amount of time off, and you are tired of loosing so much of your gains post cycle due to the length of the time off...the yoyo affect....then why not try doing shorter cycles with their corresponding shorter off times...... obviously you don't gain as much with a short cycle but then again you don't loose as much post cycle either due to the shorter off time.

    Now... over say a year of doing 4 on 4-6 off you are gong to get very similar results as that seen from doing longer cycles of say 12 "on" 12-14 off but with less yo-yo affect and less sides. In fact most of my clients that do 4-6 week cycles tell me that they are actually getting better gains over a years use.

    #2.
    Do them to have less of a negative impact on ones lipid profile and to have less total time per year with a poor lipid profile.

    Some of you may not know that androgens, taken at even newbie bodybuilding doses, alter everyones lipid profile. Everyone sees their hdl(good cholesterol) take a huge "nosedive" and most also see their ldl(bad cholesterol) go up to some degree but not to the same degree that hdl decreases. Generally hdl decreases 40-70% in as little as 2 weeks and ldl increases an average of 36% in 4 weeks. In my experience this reduction in hdl puts all bro's hdl WELL below the pathological minimum of 35. My ldl does not elevate above the pathological level of 160 but others see ldl's well above 160.
    Lipid levels typically normalize within 3-10 weeks after discontinuation.
    ( details taken from article in Medscape)

    Here are my "numbers" from the last long cycle of test 750mg/week and tren 75mg/day. A powerful stack but not a huge dose of gear. It's been as bad with less powerful gear and lower doses. Blood work done after week 7.

    Total cholesterol 181...not bad.
    ldl 160...not very good
    hdl 11.6! CRAPPY big time
    Cholesterol to hdl ratio 15.7 to 1...ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE! This is when my doc and I had a COW at the same time.
    Triglycerides 50...good.

    Here is my "baseline" without gear

    Chol 152...great
    ldl 106...great
    hdl 45-48...good
    tri 50..good
    chol to hdl ratio....3.16 to 1.....good

    .As far as I and my endochrinologist are concerned this lipid altering side of gear use is the single worst side of steroid use.
    In as little as a week hdl decreases. Personally my brother-in-law and I really see a huge decrease after about 3 weeks "on' cycle. The last time I did a long cycle my total cholesterol to hdl ratio plummeted to 15 to 1!...My doc had a cow and so did I!!

    According to current medical thought ones total cholesterol to hdl ratio is the single greatest LIPID indicator for assessing ones chances of developing heart disease. Men with low total cholesterols but with crappy hdl have gone on to develope heart disease WITHOUT ANY OTHER RISK FACTORS such as smoking, or diabetes.

    Ideally you want an hdl of at least 40 and a ratio of 3.5 to 1 or better.

    My mentor, the late great MIKE MENTZER died of heart disease at age 50 and I know for a fact that ARNOLD had more than valve surgery(I am an operating room nurse as well as a trainer)


    #3.
    Do them to decrease liver stress.
    Generally long cycles with non 17aa roids are not that hard on the liver but sometimes one can get into trouble. The short cycle allows for less total stress on the liver and the frequent "off" times allows the liver to regenerate very well.
    Generally a healthy liver can take pretty big "hits" for short periods of time without any problem ...it is long term stress that cause liver damage(as seen with elevated GGT enzyme levels)

    #4.
    Do them if you want to "tone down" your use of steroids.

    #5.
    Do them if you do NOT want to use HCG during a cycle to prevent testicular atrophy. HPTA shut down will be complete in as little as a week "on" but testicualr atrophy is minimal due to the short length of this shut down. This then allows for better HPTA recovery post cycle.
    It is small testes that makes HPTA recovery slow because GnRH from the hypothalamus and LH from the pituitary normally rebound pretty rapidly.
    * There will be some testicular shrinkage in any cycle so if you do 4 "on" 4 "off" for several cycles in a row then it would be a good idea to use hcg at 500iu's every 3rd day while "on" to prevent testicular atrophy...the 4 weeks "off" may not be enough time to allow for complete testicular recovery and over the span of several cycles this may impact your HPTA recovery.

    You certainly can use hcg while on any short cycle to prevent any testicular shrinkage if you like but it really isn't necessary.

    #6.
    Do them if you do not want to see much in the way of water retention and do not want to use an estrogen inhibitor or an ace inhibitor(diuretic)


    #7.
    Do them if you get high blood pressure and do not wish to use the above mentioned ancillaries.

    #8. Do them if you are sick of androgenic sides such as ance, prostate hypertrophy and hair loss(if prone to hair loss) etc etc.
    Androgen sides come on for two reason...dose used and especially length of time "on". I do not get acne until after 4 weeks on and then I get hammered.....and I hate it.

    #9.
    Do them if you are tired of walking around with high estrogen levels for months on end and do not wish to or cannot afford to use an estrogen inhibitor. High estrogen levels are NOT good for the prostate at all!

    You certainly can use estrogen inhibitors if you like if you want to keep estrogen levels down and experience very little water retention.


    WHY NOT TO DO THEM

    Obviously if you compete at a high level then short cycles are probably not the best for you, BUT I think they are the best way to use steroids for the vast majority of bro's.
    Top competitors need to be "on" either all the time or most of the time....thats unfortunate but usually necessary in order to get freaky huge which is now needed to win big.


    WHAT TO EXPECT

    If one is not yet at ones natural maximum level of muscular developement then very good gains can be seen of up to 15 pounds and 10 pounds kept after a 4 weeker...as long as you train correctly as a natural post cycle.

    If one is off gear and has dropped to ones natural max then a short cycle can add up to 10 pounds. If you take no more than 6 weeks off after each four weeker you will not loose much...then in each successive cycle you can still gain but the gains will be smaller the further you get from your natural max.

    Those that are off cycle and have not yet shrunk down to their natural max can still gain well with successive short cycles but don't expect to win at the national level.

    One of the things I like about short cycles is the short time "off" between cycles.......muscular atrophy is minimal during the off time and you are allowing for frequent bodily normalization after minimal time "on". LESS SIDES IN GENERAL, LESS TIME WITH A ****TY LIPID PROFILE and LESS MUSCLE LOSS POST CYCLE.

    NOTE: You cannot get "freaky big" in this way...that takes very big doses and spending most of the year, for years on end, on steroids as well as GH and slin, and that my freinds is simply not a good idea unless you plan to make your living as a bodybuilder.

    Getting pretty darn big in small steps is a safer way to use gear IMHO...and it messes less with one head too. Some guys really get depressed during "off" times of 12 or more weeks waiting to start their next cycle.


    GEAR CHOICE and RATIONAL

    The idea behind short cycles is to "get in" quick, hit the androgen receptors hard, get some gains, and then get the hell out as fast as possible so as to minimize sides. So with this in mind one should only use orals and rapid acting/clearing injectables. The limited time "on' simply doesn't justify the use of the "slower" esterfied injectables like deca etc. Also, these same roids take too long to clear the system and that too goes against the philosophy of short cycles.

    The gear choosen should be powerful for best results and doses need to be decent as well in order to get the most from the short time on.
    You can use mild gear like anavar but your results will be reduced.

    BEST Gear

    d-bol
    test prop
    tren
    anadrol

    BEST stacks.

    Personally I think d-bol/tren cannot be beat. There is only one roid that is better than testosterone, in the short run, IMHO and that is d-bol...too bad it's 17aa.

    Test prop/tren
    Test prop/tren/winny
    Test prop/anadrol
    Test prop/d-bol


    STACKS AND DOSE EXAMPLES

    I like tren and I like d-bol and especially for a shorty. YES NEWBIE you can use these strong androgens and NO tren is not hard on the kidneys(myth).

    Some guys think I am nuts for recommending tren for a first cycle and they say it is too harsh.... but most of the same bro's will recommend a long cycle of test/d-bol for a newbie and I can assure you that a long cycle of test/d-bol is going to give you more sides than a shorty with tren and d-bol. Bro's test is just as "harsh" as tren and it causes a good deal of water retention, with resultant increase in BP(bad in some bro's) unless you use an estrogen inhibitor....and **** test/d-bol stacks are WAY "harsher" than tren.

    The only issue with tren is the frequent injecting required.....but I know some of you newbies have been researching for a long time and are fine with the idea of frequent injections(they aren't that bad!)


    Novice... TREN/D-BOL....

    Tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks and d-bol 30mg/day in 4 divided doses per day(one right before bed) for 4 weeks.
    Two days after last tren do clomid at 200-300mg on day one in divided doses and then 50-100mg/day for a week and then 50mg a day for 3 more weeks. OR...Nolva at 80mg on day one in divided doses followed by 40mg/day for a week and then 20mg/day for 3 more weeks.
    Have nolva or clomid on hand for gyno protection.

    More advanced...200 of tren on day one as a front load to get tren levels up pronto and then 75mg/day for 4 weeks. D-bol 50mg/day in 4 divided doses for 4 weeks. SERMS as above

    Novice...TEST PROP/TREN

    Test prop 75mg/day for 4 weeks and tren 50mg/day for 4 weeks. Serms as above. Nolva on hand.

    more advanced.....Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100-200mg/day for 4 weeks. Tren 75mg/day. An estrogen inhibitor might be needed.

    MEGA STACK... ADVANCED
    Test prop 300mg on day one and then 100mg /day for 4 weeks, d-bol 50mg/day and tren 75mg/day......LOOK THE HELL OUT! Have the nolva on the tip of your tongue he he he ...arimidex at 1-1.5mg/day would be wise even for the short 4 week period.

    SINGLE STEROIDS

    D-bol really is an unreal roid and as I said it is even better than test in the short run IMHO.
    One can get very nice results from d-bol alone at 50mg/day for 4-6 weeks. Don't take it for longer than 6 weeks though as it is a 17aa roid and as such is somewhat hard on the liver.
    D-bol for 6 weeks at a time was a favorite cycle length in the old days and produced excellent gains.

    Test prop can be run all by itself at 75-200mg/day with great results too.



    OKAY.....BUT YOU SAY YOU ONLY HAVE SUST, EQ, CYP etc

    Long chain esterfied roids and tests are not the best choice for the shorty, as explained above, but they can work pretty well IF you do pretty large front loads. FRONT LOADS simply help to get blood hormone levels up more quickly.

    ie: Intermediate user doing test cyp ...do a FRONT LOAD of at least 800mg on day one...then 2 days latter do 400mg and then every 4h day do another 400.
    400 every 4th day is equal to 700mg per week.

    Run the cyp for 4-6 weeks and you'll get some decent gains from it.

    * Best to use tren with this cycle....or d-bol (1 mg of arimidex/day if using d-bol and test)

    * After the last shot of cyp you are going to have to wait for a couple weeks for androgen levels to drop before you start PCT and this is akin to lengthening the cycle.



    BLOOD LIPIDS

    You might want to consider taking the worlds best hdl improver while "on" cycle...NIACIN!
    Nothing even comes close to niacins hdl incresing powers. Personally it has not helped my hdl while "on' nor has it helped my brother-in-laws, but you might see some level of improvement(don't expect a great improvement though since androgens do such a great job of messing with hepatic lipaze)

    Nicain comes in three forms...regular, extended release(Niaspan) and non flush niacin. Niaspan is the best and works well at 1500mg/day taken once daily. Regular niacin works well at 600-1000mg three times a day but it gives a nasty ichy flush for a while after taking each pill.
    Non flush works fairly well at 2-3 grams a day but not as good as the others IMHO.


    Use nicain while "off" for sure as it will rapidly improve your ****ty hdl level.
    NOTE*** niacin can be hard on the liver so never use it with acutane which is hard on the liver. You really should have liver panels done if you use niacin for more than 6 weeks and be followed by a doctor(Swale would be good) especially if you are on steroids as well.

    ENTER POLICOSANOL

    DrVeejay11(real doctor) introduced me to another great lipid protector/improver and it too raises hdl BUT BONUS...it lowers ldl too.. and it's not liver toxic at all so you could use this stuff all the time with no worries.
    Do a search at www.medscape.com for abstracts on POLICOSANOL.


    I recommed that all be followed by a doctor while on steroids or at the very least educate yourself about the sides of steroid use and how to avoid the pitfalls by following yourself with blood work at labs that do not require a docs script(especially liver panels... and psa for us older guys) And guys at a minimum also watch your blood pressure while on gear at your local drug store monitoring station....keep the BP under 140 over 90 if you can especailly if you are "on" for months on end.






    #10
    volatile
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 21:38:16 (permalink)
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    Ive read this thread before, its one of the most interesting I have read,

    Thanks again khany


    #11
    carnage
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 22:26:41 (permalink)
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    khany mate i thought u did iranians every cycle? if u only stay on 6 weeks wouldnt it be a bit shocking in terms of results? it only kicks in for me at week 5 or so, itd be like a week or 2 cycle

    Maybe you can handle yourself one of them First Class tickets to the resurrection,So long, Mel, Have a good trip
    #12
    alpine
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/28 23:13:32 (permalink)
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    #13
    khany
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/29 00:00:33 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: carnage

    khany mate i thought u did iranians every cycle? if u only stay on 6 weeks wouldnt it be a bit shocking in terms of results? it only kicks in for me at week 5 or so, itd be like a week or 2 cycle


    yeah mate used irainian for the bulking cycles and of recent been using prop for my 6 weekers
    #14
    volatile
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/29 00:14:01 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: carnage

    khany mate i thought u did iranians every cycle? if u only stay on 6 weeks wouldnt it be a bit shocking in terms of results? it only kicks in for me at week 5 or so, itd be like a week or 2 cycle


    I just asked this question you may find this interesting,

    ORIGINAL: volatile


    If you run a normal 10 week test e cycle (test e 1 - 10)
    im right in saying that the test e would only kick in until week 4, thus being on test from 4 - 10


    ORIGINAL: PartyBoy

    No that's not true at all. You're on test weeks 1-10. You are confusing this fact with the noticeable changes seen which will be a period of time delayed from the actual cycle.


    So basically week 4/5 is when you start noticing the changes, your on test from the start, is this right?
    post edited by volatile - 2005/07/29 00:15:38


    #15
    The Godfather
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/29 00:45:09 (permalink)
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    the key to recovery from long/heavy cycles is running hcg on cycle, or so i've been told
    #16
    actin
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/29 09:52:14 (permalink)
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    I recently completed a 21 week test primo cycle and recovery has been fine. I ran hcg half way through and at the end. Tren and winny are very suppressive imo and I avoid them now.
    #17
    teapot
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/29 09:55:06 (permalink)
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    Hi

    How did you find the gains on the test/primo Actin? Thanks
    #18
    carnage
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/29 10:51:08 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: volatile

    ORIGINAL: carnage

    khany mate i thought u did iranians every cycle? if u only stay on 6 weeks wouldnt it be a bit shocking in terms of results? it only kicks in for me at week 5 or so, itd be like a week or 2 cycle


    I just asked this question you may find this interesting,

    ORIGINAL: volatile


    If you run a normal 10 week test e cycle (test e 1 - 10)
    im right in saying that the test e would only kick in until week 4, thus being on test from 4 - 10


    ORIGINAL: PartyBoy

    No that's not true at all. You're on test weeks 1-10. You are confusing this fact with the noticeable changes seen which will be a period of time delayed from the actual cycle.




    So basically week 4/5 is when you start noticing the changes, your on test from the start, is this right?


    yea bro, sounds odd that test doesnt really 'work' even though your flooding your body with it the first few weeks, lol once u get a few cycles under your belt u will know what we mean about it 'kicking in', the longer the ester the longer it will take to notice the results, although u are on test from week 1

    Maybe you can handle yourself one of them First Class tickets to the resurrection,So long, Mel, Have a good trip
    #19
    actin
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    RE: When does recovery become difficult? 2005/07/29 11:48:16 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: teapot

    Hi

    How did you find the gains on the test/primo Actin? Thanks


    Excellent combo mate even at moderate dosages [400mg primo ew 250 test e3d].
    #20
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