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Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy??

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JohnOvManchester
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2004/02/19 19:04:26 (permalink)
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Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy??

I have noticed that a lot of members do not lift to there full potential in there 1st sets.
Most routines I have noticed on the board seem to either pyramid up in weight in the latter sets or stick to the same weight all the way through.
Is the reason so many are doing it this way because they are saving themselves for the latter sets?
IMO, you are doing yourself out of gains.

I trian at maximum all the time.
Lets take 5x5 for example...
I start my sets heavy as possible so I only just get the last rep.
We all agree heavier lifts = bigger and stronger us?
Yes?
So why not start heavy as poss and then slightly drop the weight just enough so you only just get your last rep?

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    Robert
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/19 19:06:59 (permalink)
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    john,
    if you are training for strength, why would doing subseqeunt sets and reps @ 190kg benifit you if you had already done 200kg?
    rob

    EDIT: progressive singles, triples [whatever] also allow the nervous system to get to grips with what it about to recive, and allows your muscles valuable warmup time.

    although, for example on the squat, it may be of some use to do some walkouts with 210kg, before actually squatting 200kg, if you get me.
    rob
    #2
    GymCatt
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/19 19:32:44 (permalink)
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    I agree with Robert i can deadlift 150kg for 5 reps but a typical approach would be 70kgx8,110kgx6,130kgx5,140kgx5 then 150kgx5 i couldnt get there any quicker cos i need to warm up, otherwise i would rip myself a new butt hole.
    #3
    Dano
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/19 20:25:20 (permalink)
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    Proper warmup = More weight lifted

    Go over to elitefts.com and check out the powerlifters journals. If there is any group of people that want to lift as most weight as possible it is them. They slowly pyramid the weight up to warmup the muscles and nervous system
    #4
    acooper
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/19 20:52:19 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by JohnOvManchester

    I have noticed that a lot of members do not lift to there full potential in there 1st sets.
    Most routines I have noticed on the board seem to either pyramid up in weight in the latter sets or stick to the same weight all the way through.
    Is the reason so many are doing it this way because they are saving themselves for the latter sets?
    IMO, you are doing yourself out of gains.

    I trian at maximum all the time.
    Lets take 5x5 for example...
    I start my sets heavy as possible so I only just get the last rep.
    We all agree heavier lifts = bigger and stronger us?
    Yes?
    So why not start heavy as poss and then slightly drop the weight just enough so you only just get your last rep?





    Bigger maybe, stronger no!

    Training near to failure does not yield optimum strength gains. Gains in strength are the result of nerual adaptations from repeated lifting at pace. It depends what you are training for, if you want to gain moderated size and moderate strength then yes you may want to lift heavy to failure. But if you want to make significant gains in strength you must train for power and dynamic strength (assuming you actually want to use your strength for something other than writing big numbers in your training journal).
    #5
    drab4
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/19 21:43:02 (permalink)
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    Explain more please Acooper.
    quote:
    But if you want to make significant gains in strength you must train for power and dynamic strength (assuming you actually want to use your strength for something other than writing big numbers in your training journal).
    #6
    JohnOvManchester
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/19 22:57:38 (permalink)
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    Robert -
    the volume mate. If it was just down to a single weight lifted we would all be doing a warm up the 1 set of 1 reps and just 1rm everything.
    As for the CNS, I limber up a bit then I do a heavyish warm up (only one set of roughly the same amount of reps as working sets) thats heavy enough for getting the muscle/CNS ready for what it's about to get.
    PS... I sometimes do a "walkout" or more a lift of with a weight heavier than my set on bench press, probably work on the same priciple.

    Bengdogg -
    if you trained with me mate, your 1st set would be 160kg, 2nd 155kg, 3rd 150kg, 4th 147.5kg etc each time only dropping the weight just enough so you struggle on your last rep but still just about get it. you can lift heavier because you have started with the heavier lifts while fresh.
    Heavier lifts and what does that equal? Bigger & stronger Bengdogg? I think yes.

    acooper -
    "Bigger maybe, stronger no!"
    I beg to differ mate.
    Don't lifting heavier weights make you stronger as well as bigger?
    I only want my strength to get results namely bigger and stronger so yes in a way it is only to write bigger numbers in my trianing log, but what do those bigger numbers equate to? Bigger and stronger John by any chance? I am results driven only mate.
    #7
    acooper
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/19 22:59:37 (permalink)
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    Starting with some simple facts: Strength/power increases as a result of improved inter and intra muscular co-ordination, increased recruitment of motor units, firing rate of units, reflexes and muscular cross section.

    Muscular cross section is developed my tissue breakdown (through training) and supercompensation (the muscles will be re-built bigger). This is best achieved by braking down as much muscle tissue as possible to stimulate the largest response, i.e. training to failure, eccentric reps, isometric reps etc. Realise that an increase in muscle size does not equal increase in strength, it equals increase in potential strength. Strength is the result of how effectively your body, by way of the nervous system, controls the muscles; co-ordination, recruitment etc. For your body to learn how to carry out these functions it must be taught through repetition so to use training time effectively to make the largest possible strength gains time should be devoted to this motor learning training. Obviously if you want to get really strong you must increase muscle cross section to raise your potential strength but this is more long term planning as you are just getting your body to your desired size prior to the real strength training.

    Why does the work have to be dynamic? Because the cns can only learn what it is taught. Studies show that the cns controls eccentric, isometric, and concentric contractions differently, if you want to use your strength 99% of any feats of strength you will do will require a combination of all or most of these, as well as reactive strength (stretch shortening cycle), the nervous system must be taught to control accordingly.

    If you wanted to just build the highest pure maximum strength eccentric and isometric strength and corresponding training are stronger, in that order. But they’re not gonna be very beneficial in sports or the real world.

    Alan.
    #8
    JohnOvManchester
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 00:03:55 (permalink)
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    By dynamic I am guessing you mean speed.
    Well I would say using a heavier weight will yeild more strength and size gains than a light weight done fast.
    #9
    JohnOvManchester
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 00:05:12 (permalink)
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    J5 -
    if you could use 155kg for 5 sets then I would start on more like 165 or 170kg.

    #10
    project
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 11:09:04 (permalink)
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    if you always warm up with lighter weights then build on this to get to your max at you last set.ie
    45kgs
    55kgs
    65kgs
    75kgs
    85kgs max

    if you increase the starting set could you get out another max each week. i guess its all relative.
    #11
    acooper
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 13:54:55 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by JohnOvManchester

    By dynamic I am guessing you mean speed.
    Well I would say using a heavier weight will yeild more strength and size gains than a light weight done fast.




    By dynamic i just mean moving the weight. What weight you use and what speed you are able to overcome it, depends on what type of strength you want.
    #12
    TIMMEH
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 13:57:00 (permalink)
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    "I could probably get one extra rep if I wanted on the first two sets, but I would be incapable of getting another rep on the last three" (sorry dont know how to use quotes)

    i thought that was going to failure? ie you couldnt lift one more rep.So Failure is attempting say a 5th rep on last set of 5x5 and not being able to complete it?
    #13
    acooper
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 13:58:31 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by project

    if you always warm up with lighter weights then build on this to get to your max at you last set.ie
    45kgs
    55kgs
    65kgs
    75kgs
    85kgs max

    if you increase the starting set could you get out another max each week. i guess its all relative.



    Why limit yourself to that No. of sets. The warm up should not contribute towards the work sets, you just do as much or as little as you need to prepare the body for work and then perform the work sets.
    #14
    Robert
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 14:15:18 (permalink)
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    john,
    quote:
    Robert -
    the volume mate

    what do you see the benifits of volume being, in terms of subsequent reps being performed whith a decrease in load.

    rob

    rob
    #15
    JohnOvManchester
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 15:39:44 (permalink)
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    Rob -
    Strength and size.
    I don't know mate, it just works. Like J5 would stay with 155kg, same priciple, why lift that weight another 5 sets at the same weight?
    Because you need some volume.

    J5 -
    I know your never gonna agree but if you can lift 155K for you last set then you are certainly strong enough to start heavier.
    And we know heavier = stronger - my theory is that simple.
    Heavier weight for the same amount of reps is better than a lighter weight for the same amount of reps.
    Give it a go for a short time and I would put money your lifts will rise.
    #16
    GymCatt
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 18:11:19 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Originally posted by JohnOvManchester

    Bengdogg -
    if you trained with me mate, your 1st set would be 160kg, 2nd 155kg, 3rd 150kg, 4th 147.5kg etc each time only dropping the weight just enough so you struggle on your last rep but still just about get it. you can lift heavier because you have started with the heavier lifts while fresh.
    Heavier lifts and what does that equal? Bigger & stronger Bengdogg? I think yes.




    I couldnt lift 160kg cold i know this cos i have tried to reduce my warm ups, the key here is to do what works best for you, the 110 kg set feels heavier than the 140kg cos i am still warming into the lift. Its the same for coc grippers and nail bending for me, i have to prepare myself.
    #17
    GymCatt
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 18:18:51 (permalink)
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    Ive read all the posts now and i see what you mean John But i am inclined to agree with J5 that i would be a wreck after a few weeks, I am going to experiment with it though cos it has made my mind wonder
    #18
    JohnOvManchester
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/20 19:45:02 (permalink)
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    quote:
    Generally true, but there are too many other things that qualify this statement. For example if that were absolutely true why would anyone do anything but 1RM's?

    We don't all do 1rm's because we still need some volume, but IMO we should go as heavy as possible in that volume.
    quote:
    Which of course it does as I squat twice a week and bench twice a week, which I wouldn't have a hope in hell of doing with your system

    Thats right, you could only do it my way once a week.
    You would not be overtraining at once a week. IMO also the more you do it the better your body cope's, so overtraing is less and less likely.

    Don't know about my CNS being on edge? How do you tell?

    My theory is my own non-scientific but to be logical, it is not based on how any pros do it...
    The pro's you mentioned; I have trained with some bbers (and boxers and track athletics people sprint and hurdle) but balls to the wall and going to failure is comman place.
    Infact balls to the wall exactly the way my theory works.
    It's based on asking your body to do ever increasing weights and the next time you do that, your body will have adapted to cope in the best way it can and you shall be slightly better at the task each time, so in our case - lift that extra rep or that extra 2.5kg.

    Boxing background - yes. Endurance/ drill yourself is a big thing as far as thats concerned.

    I don't apply that to weights tho. I am pretty much the other end of the scale.
    I use only just enough volume to work, but use a weight that is really pushing it to the absolute limit with nothing held back or kept in reserve for later lifts. all out every time.

    I can accept that lifting (westside?) on speed days and heavy days can yeild very good gains if you want to train twice a week.
    BUT as for a normal 3 day split...
    I have yet to see any reasons why pyramiding up through sets or keeping the same weight is better than lifting heavier weights.

    Thanks for the debate guys, all input is appreciated.
    #19
    JayavarmanVII
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    RE: Why pyramid up in your sets, why not start heavy?? 2004/02/21 10:58:28 (permalink)
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    JOM, you suggest starting with the MAXIMUM weight you can handle for 5 reps, then reducing it slightly so that you can still just about manage 5 reps in the second set and so on. If you're talking about 5x5 then that's 5 sets to failure. IMO that's gonna kill your CNS and lead to overtraining very quickly.

    TUFF
    #20
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