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2008/05/14 21:29:37 (permalink)

building muscle

Hi, Can anybody help? I'd like to build muscle ie bulk up, which are the best steriods to take? and how often? I do work out but would love to bulk up more and have more defined muscles in my arms and shoulders as well as my chest. Any suggestions on fat burners as well? Looking to burn fat and give me an energy boost. Cheers
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20 Replies Related Threads

    Valley Fitness
    Dieselboy
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/14 21:59:11 (permalink)
    cant even be arsed, dont know where to start


    Balls are for pansies!!
    #2
    t_c_1
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/14 22:00:52 (permalink)
    it is hard to make recommendations on cycle use for mass, when we have no background, previous cycle use, dosages, tolerance, etc.
    but testosterone is the basic !!!

    mate is the king even for Beginners, Intermediate, Advanced intermediate and Advanced user or competitor !!!

    please have a look here and you maybe find your answer here :

    http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/article-beginners-steroids-faq.aspx

    cheers mate

    Good judgment usually comes from experience and experience usually comes from bad judgement
    #3
    Dieselboy
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/14 22:39:49 (permalink)
    i'd put money on the op being 15

    Balls are for pansies!!
    #4
    window
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/14 23:50:23 (permalink)
    hi just finnished a 8 week course of testosterone but would love 2 be a bit bigger
    #5
    t_c_1
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/15 00:07:58 (permalink)
    Window,

    ASS is just the top of the iceberg...

    I mean when you juice, you have to understand that everything is different than when U are natural...

    *Training structure during, during PCT, and the after PCT !!!!
    *Rest Protocol during, during PCT, and the after PCT !!!!
    *Diet protocol (the real secret!!!) that's why some (like me) love to use slin !!! to get pure bulk mass!!! same here : during, during PCT, and the after PCT !!!!
    *Supplement protocol also...
    ....

    so to take real advantage you have to mixt all and then you will enjoy building new muscles and keeping this new muscles !!!

    you also need to remember ROME wan't built in 1 day !!!
    post edited by t_c_1 - 2008/05/15 04:59:43

    Good judgment usually comes from experience and experience usually comes from bad judgement
    #6
    CJW
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/15 08:19:49 (permalink)
    TC1, how do training differ when on cycle to off cycle? Less volume but high intensity during PCT? How about rest?
    Doesn't seem to be much information on this around.
    #7
    Jams
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/15 08:50:29 (permalink)
    Whats you training experience, diet, age etc

    Wouldn't bother with aas until you get a solid foundation for them to build off

    Unleash The Animal!!
    #8
    mick_the_brick
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/15 09:41:13 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: t_c_1

    ASS is just the top of the iceberg...



    What's ass got to do with anything??

    Window - get some food down you... that will help you grow
    #9
    erekose
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/15 10:24:58 (permalink)
    What's ass got to do with anything??


    Stop pretending you don't know young man.
    #10
    mick_the_brick
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/15 10:32:40 (permalink)

    Ok ok..

    I'm busted
    #11
    ed1coupe
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/15 10:59:41 (permalink)
    I don't understand the OP
    #12
    mussy
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/15 11:18:43 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Jams

    Whats you training experience, diet, age etc

    Wouldn't bother with aas until you get a solid foundation for them to build off



    I agree with jams, untill you have a solid fundation dont even attempt to start aas...
    #13
    ed1coupe
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/15 11:25:48 (permalink)
    bit late for that- check his 2nd post
    #14
    t_c_1
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    RE: building muscle 2008/05/16 05:52:42 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: CJW

    TC1, how do training differ when on cycle to off cycle? Less volume but high intensity during PCT? How about rest?
    Doesn't seem to be much information on this around.

    About training ...if you are like me...I mean already train HARD as possible without juice... when you juice you have to kill your muscle...the hardest as you can...with some drop sets...super sets...negative...etc... because you have some drugs in your body!!! some drugs which are normally for burning people or something else...

    About volume vs Intensity...
    ...you have a lot of volume programs out there that are being used by the likes of Ronnie Coleman, Branch Warren, Jay Cutler, and the like, which have got tremendous results from those programs.
    On the flip side you have HIT. A low volume, high intensity program that was masterminded by Mike Mentzer, and brought to the forefront by Dorian Yates in the 90’s...
    “Which style of training is better?”
    In my opinion, a mixt/hybrid.

    PCT, I think you have to train as heavy as during you cycle if you can!!! ...so very short and hard and heavy (remember you don't need to go to faillure !!!! as you only need to continue to stimule your new big muscles... and don't want to try to built new muscles!!! as you cannot !!!! and BIG rest !!!!



    this is an article that I have found .... quite interesting ... like all articles !!! you should filter informations and check with different way like trying or forums...

    good luck my friend

    Coming Off A Cycle
    by Marcus Haidam



    Introduction


    A few minor inconveniences aside, the only really bad thing about steroids is that you have to come off of them. Technically, of course, you don't HAVE to, but this article isn't intended for those who fall into that category. Nor is it intended for the athlete who uses a gram per week for long periods and then typically uses insulin, DNP, prostaglandins, and other such compounds if they ever do actually come off (That topic, though quite fun to fantasize about, has nothing to do with most athletes). The recommendations in this article will do very little for maintaining the unnatural degree of muscularity attained with such methods. It's instead intended primarily for the moderate user, whom I'll (arbitrarily) define for our purposes as someone using 400-600 mg/week of steroids -- or very high doses of prohormones (1g/day of a topical, 100+mg/day intranasal). I don't recommend continuous lower intakes as suppression will still occur without the concomitant dramatic increases in LBM.

    To start, we should mention a little bit about the "on" part of the cycle. We'd like to maximize gains and, at the same time, put ourselves in an optimal position to keep them once the cycle is stopped. What to do during the cycle could be an entire article itself, so I'll merely cover the areas where what we do has a direct influence on the recommendations while coming off.



    Training

    Training during the cycle should be high volume because muscle contraction upregulates androgen receptors (AR), and with supraphysiological levels of androgens, it's in our best interest to have as many AR's as possible. It will be very difficult to overtrain while "on", assuming optimal nutrition and rest, so basically do as much volume as you can handle and still have energized workouts and muscles that are not sore. This might be as much as 2 workouts/day (of about 45 minutes), 6 days per week for the genetically gifted)

    We should avoid going to failure as it will ultimately limit our volume, plus we'll want our CNS fresh when we come off the cycle. So, no HIT ****, if you please. HIT type training is primarily effective in a situation where overtraining of the endocrine system has occurred (from 2 hour a day workouts) leaving the athlete with a poor testosterone to cortisol ratio. Again, we have supraphysiological levels of androgens, so that issue goes out the window.

    The eccentric portion of the exercises won't be overemphasized because steroids cause increased muscle protein breakdown/fiber damage (with an even greater increase in muscle protein synthesis), so the high degree of muscle fiber trauma inflicted by eccentric training isn't only unnecessary, but it's probably counterproductive.

    The preceding training strategies will not only maximize our gains while on the cycle, but as you will see later, will leave us primed for optimal retention when we come off.



    The HPTA


    Our other area of focus will be the hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis (HPTA). An 8-10 week, 24-7 cycle will almost certainly cause full suppression despite any strategies we might undertake, so it's a mute point in that situation, but with the 2 week mini-cycles that are becoming increasingly popular, it's likely that we can still have significant testicular function when our cycle is stopped.

    There are two mechanisms by which negative feedback inhibition of the HPTA occurs, estrogen binding to the estrogen receptors (ER) and androgens binding to the androgen receptors(AR), both of which occur in the hypothalamus. We could prevent binding to the AR by using a receptor antagonist, but it would also antagonize the AR in the muscle, thus defeating the purpose of taking steroids -- unless, that is, significant non-AR mediated anabolism occurs, as has been suggested by some.


    Editors note: I really wish someone would take 100mg/day of d-bol with cyproteron acetate (AR antagonist) and see if they Get Hyooge (tm) or not -- that would go a long ways toward settling this dispute.


    Another option here is to be "on" only during the mornings, using either orals or intranasal (or possibly a fast acting topical when/if an effective one becomes available), leaving us with normal systemic androgen levels at night when LH release occurs. This has been found to avoid significant alterations of the HPTA, even with as high as 100mg d-bol/day.

    The final option is to decrease estrogen binding in the hypothalamus. This can be accomplished by lowering systemic estrogen with an aromatase inhibitor (and/or choosing anabolics that do not readily convert to estrogen) such as Arimadex, Cytadren, and perhaps high delivered doses of chrysin (whose in vivo potency equals that of Cytadren, but whose oral bioavailabilty is extremely poor, making sufficient delivery by that route basically unattainable for all practical purposes). We can also block access to the ER with an antagonist such as Clomid, Proviron, or Nolvadex (which, unfortunately, also interferes with a couple of enzymes involved in steroid production in the testes, thus canceling out its benefits on the AR, making it inferior to Clomid in that regard). Or, we could use a combination of aromatase inhibition and receptor antagonism. This strategy should prevent negative feedback to some extent, perhaps leaving us with testosterone levels of 400 instead of 200 (again, being rather arbitrary).

    We have done all we can during the cycle, and now we have stopped and must do all we can to preserve our gains. If steps have not been taken to reduce estrogen binding in the hypothalamus, that should begin immediately. Clomid is the preferred choice in this area at 50-100mg/day, but an aromatase inhibitor should be just as effective, but its use should begin a few days earlier as it won't do anything for estrogen that's already present. Ideally, both methods should probably be used.

    We must also now decide if we want to completely stop cold or use a morning only system in an attempt to maximize anabolism for as long as possible while still allowing HPTA recovery. If we choose the latter, it would probably not be a bad idea to time workouts to occur during this period - both for CNS effects and for anabolic effects. In deciding which is the best choice, the basic questions to be answered are: Does this method even provide significant anabolic benefit?? How much, if any, does it inhibit natural testosterone production?? And most importantly, do the positives of the first outweigh the possible negatives of the second?? My guess based on the available data and anecdotal reports is that is does. I would recommend this strategy for 2-3 weeks. At that point either go off completely or start a new "on" cycle.



    Nutrition


    When we stop our cycle, androgen levels are going to be below normal. That is a given, even with the afore mentioned strategies. What we can do something about is whether the other anabolic hormones (insulin, IGF-l, GH, thyroid, etc.) are maximized or not. Being handicapped by the first, we want to make the second as optimal as possible (hint: DO NOT START A DIET AT THIS POINT!!). Overeating (editors note: gluttons "overeat", athletes "overfeed") has been shown in numerous studies to maximize these factors, so I recommend continuing with above maintenance calories for the first week of "off" time. This will result in a bit of extra fat gain, but I've found it (when combined with all the other strategies in this article) to allow for almost total retention of LBM gains (again this is on a "moderate" cycle). As testosterone production returns to normal, calories can be lowered to maintenance or below.



    Training



    During the cycle, we trained using a high volume approach. During the "off" cycle, we will change things up (which, in itself, will be helpful for growth). As much **** as HIT gets (and deservedly so), it does have its uses. This is one of them. As mentioned earlier, the primary benefit of HIT type training is its beneficial effects on the endocrine system, and that will be very helpful now, as we desperately want to maximize testosterone levels.

    Long workouts lower testosterone to cortisol ratios, so we are going to keep our workouts under ½ hour, no more than 4-5 times per week. We are going to stick to heavy, basic movements such as squats, deadlifts, pullups, etc, which also tend to increase testosterone levels. We'll also make heavy use of eccentric training during this period, as it is the eccentric part of a lift that causes most of the muscle fiber damage of weight training (hence, most of the gains). I have had a good deal of success doing one set per exercise, 2 sets per bodypart of drop sets that consist of 2-3 eccentric reps at 110-120% of 1-RM, followed immediately by 2-3 eccentric reps at 90-100% 1 RM, followed immediately by 2-3 full reps at 80-85% - taking 5-6 seconds for the eccentric portion on all 3 mini-sets.



    Supplements


    Clearly, if you are doing the mornings only "off" cycle, then the appropriate prohormone or oral is a necessity. I think creatine and a protein powder should always be used, and glutamine or BCAA's in fairly high doses (20+g/day) might also be helpful, but other than that, I won't make any specific recommendations at this time. I have a few thoughts on a combination of supplements in conjunction with a specific training method that I think is very promising , but I think I will refrain from mentioning it until a bit of real world testing is done.

    Good judgment usually comes from experience and experience usually comes from bad judgement
    #15
    Julio
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    RE: building muscle 2011/01/20 23:07:03 (permalink)
    t_c_1

    ORIGINAL: CJW

    TC1, how do training differ when on cycle to off cycle? Less volume but high intensity during PCT? How about rest?
    Doesn't seem to be much information on this around.

    About training ...if you are like me...I mean already train HARD as possible without juice... when you juice you have to kill your muscle...the hardest as you can...with some drop sets...super sets...negative...etc... because you have some drugs in your body!!! some drugs which are normally for burning people or something else...

    About volume vs Intensity...
    ...you have a lot of volume programs out there that are being used by the likes of Ronnie Coleman, Branch Warren, Jay Cutler, and the like, which have got tremendous results from those programs.
    On the flip side you have HIT. A low volume, high intensity program that was masterminded by Mike Mentzer, and brought to the forefront by Dorian Yates in the 90’s...
    “Which style of training is better?”
    In my opinion, a mixt/hybrid.

    PCT, I think you have to train as heavy as during you cycle if you can!!! ...so very short and hard and heavy (remember you don't need to go to faillure !!!! as you only need to continue to stimule your new big muscles... and don't want to try to built new muscles!!! as you cannot !!!! and BIG rest !!!!



    this is an article that I have found .... quite interesting ... like all articles !!! you should filter informations and check with different way like trying or forums...

    good luck my friend

    Coming Off A Cycle
    by Marcus Haidam



    Introduction


    A few minor inconveniences aside, the only really bad thing about steroids is that you have to come off of them. Technically, of course, you don't HAVE to, but this article isn't intended for those who fall into that category. Nor is it intended for the athlete who uses a gram per week for long periods and then typically uses insulin, DNP, prostaglandins, and other such compounds if they ever do actually come off (That topic, though quite fun to fantasize about, has nothing to do with most athletes). The recommendations in this article will do very little for maintaining the unnatural degree of muscularity attained with such methods. It's instead intended primarily for the moderate user, whom I'll (arbitrarily) define for our purposes as someone using 400-600 mg/week of steroids -- or very high doses of prohormones (1g/day of a topical, 100+mg/day intranasal). I don't recommend continuous lower intakes as suppression will still occur without the concomitant dramatic increases in LBM.

    To start, we should mention a little bit about the "on" part of the cycle. We'd like to maximize gains and, at the same time, put ourselves in an optimal position to keep them once the cycle is stopped. What to do during the cycle could be an entire article itself, so I'll merely cover the areas where what we do has a direct influence on the recommendations while coming off.



    Training

    Training during the cycle should be high volume because muscle contraction upregulates androgen receptors (AR), and with supraphysiological levels of androgens, it's in our best interest to have as many AR's as possible. It will be very difficult to overtrain while "on", assuming optimal nutrition and rest, so basically do as much volume as you can handle and still have energized workouts and muscles that are not sore. This might be as much as 2 workouts/day (of about 45 minutes), 6 days per week for the genetically gifted)

    We should avoid going to failure as it will ultimately limit our volume, plus we'll want our CNS fresh when we come off the cycle. So, no HIT ****, if you please. HIT type training is primarily effective in a situation where overtraining of the endocrine system has occurred (from 2 hour a day workouts) leaving the athlete with a poor testosterone to cortisol ratio. Again, we have supraphysiological levels of androgens, so that issue goes out the window.

    The eccentric portion of the exercises won't be overemphasized because steroids cause increased muscle protein breakdown/fiber damage (with an even greater increase in muscle protein synthesis), so the high degree of muscle fiber trauma inflicted by eccentric training isn't only unnecessary, but it's probably counterproductive.

    The preceding training strategies will not only maximize our gains while on the cycle, but as you will see later, will leave us primed for optimal retention when we come off.



    The HPTA


    Our other area of focus will be the hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis (HPTA). An 8-10 week, 24-7 cycle will almost certainly cause full suppression despite any strategies we might undertake, so it's a mute point in that situation, but with the 2 week mini-cycles that are becoming increasingly popular, it's likely that we can still have significant testicular function when our cycle is stopped.

    There are two mechanisms by which negative feedback inhibition of the HPTA occurs, estrogen binding to the estrogen receptors (ER) and androgens binding to the androgen receptors(AR), both of which occur in the hypothalamus. We could prevent binding to the AR by using a receptor antagonist, but it would also antagonize the AR in the muscle, thus defeating the purpose of taking steroids -- unless, that is, significant non-AR mediated anabolism occurs, as has been suggested by some.


    Editors note: I really wish someone would take 100mg/day of d-bol with cyproteron acetate (AR antagonist) and see if they Get Hyooge (tm) or not -- that would go a long ways toward settling this dispute.


    Another option here is to be "on" only during the mornings, using either orals or intranasal (or possibly a fast acting topical when/if an effective one becomes available), leaving us with normal systemic androgen levels at night when LH release occurs. This has been found to avoid significant alterations of the HPTA, even with as high as 100mg d-bol/day.

    The final option is to decrease estrogen binding in the hypothalamus. This can be accomplished by lowering systemic estrogen with an aromatase inhibitor (and/or choosing anabolics that do not readily convert to estrogen) such as Arimadex, Cytadren, and perhaps high delivered doses of chrysin (whose in vivo potency equals that of Cytadren, but whose oral bioavailabilty is extremely poor, making sufficient delivery by that route basically unattainable for all practical purposes). We can also block access to the ER with an antagonist such as Clomid, Proviron, or Nolvadex (which, unfortunately, also interferes with a couple of enzymes involved in steroid production in the testes, thus canceling out its benefits on the AR, making it inferior to Clomid in that regard). Or, we could use a combination of aromatase inhibition and receptor antagonism. This strategy should prevent negative feedback to some extent, perhaps leaving us with testosterone levels of 400 instead of 200 (again, being rather arbitrary).

    We have done all we can during the cycle, and now we have stopped and must do all we can to preserve our gains. If steps have not been taken to reduce estrogen binding in the hypothalamus, that should begin immediately. Clomid is the preferred choice in this area at 50-100mg/day, but an aromatase inhibitor should be just as effective, but its use should begin a few days earlier as it won't do anything for estrogen that's already present. Ideally, both methods should probably be used.

    We must also now decide if we want to completely stop cold or use a morning only system in an attempt to maximize anabolism for as long as possible while still allowing HPTA recovery. If we choose the latter, it would probably not be a bad idea to time workouts to occur during this period - both for CNS effects and for anabolic effects. In deciding which is the best choice, the basic questions to be answered are: Does this method even provide significant anabolic benefit?? How much, if any, does it inhibit natural testosterone production?? And most importantly, do the positives of the first outweigh the possible negatives of the second?? My guess based on the available data and anecdotal reports is that is does. I would recommend this strategy for 2-3 weeks. At that point either go off completely or start a new "on" cycle.



    Nutrition


    When we stop our cycle, androgen levels are going to be below normal. That is a given, even with the afore mentioned strategies. What we can do something about is whether the other anabolic hormones (insulin, IGF-l, GH, thyroid, etc.) are maximized or not. Being handicapped by the first, we want to make the second as optimal as possible (hint: DO NOT START A DIET AT THIS POINT!!). Overeating (editors note: gluttons "overeat", athletes "overfeed") has been shown in numerous studies to maximize these factors, so I recommend continuing with above maintenance calories for the first week of "off" time. This will result in a bit of extra fat gain, but I've found it (when combined with all the other strategies in this article) to allow for almost total retention of LBM gains (again this is on a "moderate" cycle). As testosterone production returns to normal, calories can be lowered to maintenance or below.



    Training



    During the cycle, we trained using a high volume approach. During the "off" cycle, we will change things up (which, in itself, will be helpful for growth). As much **** as HIT gets (and deservedly so), it does have its uses. This is one of them. As mentioned earlier, the primary benefit of HIT type training is its beneficial effects on the endocrine system, and that will be very helpful now, as we desperately want to maximize testosterone levels.

    Long workouts lower testosterone to cortisol ratios, so we are going to keep our workouts under ½ hour, no more than 4-5 times per week. We are going to stick to heavy, basic movements such as squats, deadlifts, pullups, etc, which also tend to increase testosterone levels. We'll also make heavy use of eccentric training during this period, as it is the eccentric part of a lift that causes most of the muscle fiber damage of weight training (hence, most of the gains). I have had a good deal of success doing one set per exercise, 2 sets per bodypart of drop sets that consist of 2-3 eccentric reps at 110-120% of 1-RM, followed immediately by 2-3 eccentric reps at 90-100% 1 RM, followed immediately by 2-3 full reps at 80-85% - taking 5-6 seconds for the eccentric portion on all 3 mini-sets.



    Supplements


    Clearly, if you are doing the mornings only "off" cycle, then the appropriate prohormone or oral is a necessity. I think creatine and a protein powder should always be used, and glutamine or BCAA's in fairly high doses (20+g/day) might also be helpful, but other than that, I won't make any specific recommendations at this time. I have a few thoughts on a combination of supplements in conjunction with a specific training method that I think is very promising , but I think I will refrain from mentioning it until a bit of real world testing is done.



    I've seen this article a few times but, on MT at least, I've not seen any comments on what Haidam suggests at the end o the "HPTA" section, where he suggests a single morning dose of an oral post-cycle for several weeks, to allow recovery of the HPTA before then starting another cycle.  Has anyone actually tried this? Would be very interested to hear of your experiences/thoughts.  Would the HPTA recover ok as he suggests (albeit perhaps a little more slowly)?


    #16
    WGBM
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    RE: building muscle 2011/01/21 07:49:34 (permalink)
    nice bump

    The only way to discover the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible. Arthur C. Clarke
    #17
    Julio
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    RE: building muscle 2011/01/26 13:16:57 (permalink)
    Anyone? 

    #18
    Sawdust
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    RE: building muscle 2011/01/26 14:37:59 (permalink)
    You're either off or on...

    It's fvcking mental midgets who rely on AAS as a crutch who buy into all this one morning dose of oral bollocks, it will affect FULL HPTA recovery yes.

    Make your mind up though, it's either off or on in my opinion.

    Either way is fine depending on your age and circumstances but to try and dress up coming off when you're still on is horse sh1t.

    Have the balls, discipline and common sense to make a decision and stick to it.
    post edited by Doink - 2011/01/26 14:39:14
    #19
    bowley
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    RE: building muscle 2011/01/26 16:23:58 (permalink)
    Great advice on training styles, and straight talk from Doink as usual, thanks again mate.
    #20
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