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competition lifts, and me!!

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Robert
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2003/11/19 17:41:36 (permalink)

competition lifts, and me!!

i want to know,
@ my current weight of 160lb, what should i be squating, DLing and benching in order to compete at a low level?

current bench:85kg [xx(][V] [gone down over last few months after leaving it out of routine in favour of weighted dips, re-introduced recently]
DL:145kg [?]
squat:110kg [V]
[i realise it is going to be a while before they are up to scratch but want some goals to aim for]

any help appreciated.

rob
#1

17 Replies Related Threads

    trickyricky
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/19 23:58:57 (permalink)
    take it slow maybe to start aim to squat and deadlift double your body weight, maybe 2.5 times and bench 1.5 times your bodyweight, when you get there look at squat/ deadlifting triple your body weight and doubling your body weight on bench what routine you using?
    #2
    Scourge_of_God
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/20 00:51:24 (permalink)
    I'm around your weight (158lb), I'm 19 yo and at the moment I'm moving 440lb on the squat, 264lb on the bench and 484lb on the d/l and I want to improve my lifts before I start competing. Luckily, I'm still making progress...

    It rather depends on how old you are...
    #3
    Robert
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/20 08:46:20 (permalink)
    fcuking hell, SOG/TD.

    it will take me ages to achive your lifts alone. [V][V][V][V]
    i am 20, and carry pretty much no excess body fat, around 8-9%.

    better get my ass down the gym then.

    basic outline of routine

    day1:deadlift, grip+abs
    day2:bench, gip+abs
    day3:squat, grip+abs

    there is a little more to it than that, but not a lot. i do progressively heavier singles on all lifts. starting @ around 80% of 1RM.

    thanks for the info. rob
    #4
    Scourge_of_God
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/20 14:52:51 (permalink)
    No worries... How long have you been training?

    In case you wanted some recommendations for your workout, I came up with a few ideas for you...

    1) What the hell is with all the abs work? Cut that down to one session pw (bench session) and replace it with work on your lower back the other two sessions i.e. lots and lots of good mornings.

    2) Ditto the grip work - If you are p/lifting the only lift which requires good grip in the d/lift. Cut it down to one session pw max. (I don't do any grip-specific work, personally...)

    3) Cut the d/lift session - Focus on the squat (two sessions pw). I know its hard not training your best lift so often (bruises the ol' ego) but you don't really need it - If your squat goes up, so will your d/lift. D/lift only occassionally (after you've finished all your squat sets for the day) on a light weight to focus on your technique. (The only time I d/lift heavy is when I'm maxing or when I'm training for speed/power and my weight on the squat goes right down.)

    4) Alter your squat technique so it looks like your d/lift i.e. if you use the sumo d/lift, squat wide; if you use the conventional d/lift, squat narrow - That should put pounds on your squat straight away and gives you more bang for your training buck.

    5) Start multiple rep-sets. If you are doing single lifts all the time, your muscles will always be knackered or your workload isn't high enough. I do 6-rep sets on 60-70%, 4-rep sets on 70-80%, 3-rep sets on 80-90% and single reps above that except when I'm speed/power training, although that's just what works for me.

    6) Remember to train your triceps and your hamstrings seperately - The most important muscle groups for p/lifting. If you can strengthen these muscles, your lifts are gonna go up.

    btw. Don't give up - It might look like you've got a lot of work to do, but once you know it you're half-way there already. My problem is that I have no training partner, no coach and I don't compete yet, so I have real trouble motivating myself to lift more...
    #5
    Robert
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/21 11:21:52 (permalink)
    thanks for the response,

    are you sure about dropping deads?? i mean i will try it if you think it will help, just never heard that kind of advice before. also, i like to work my grip and jonny 5 [i think] said that he always trains his grip more than once a week.

    tbh i'm not so sure about doing repped sets, i have always found that i make the fastest progress when i do a couple of sets of light triples to warm up then singles progressivley heavier for say 6-8 sets. saying that, i can't pull as much as you, and that could be why.

    thanks again.
    rob
    #6
    Scourge_of_God
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/21 13:02:01 (permalink)
    Well... I didn't quite mean dropping them altogether but I don't think you need to put so much effort into them. If you've got a big squat and your d/lift technique doesn't have any major flaws, you are gonna have a big d/lift. That's why I recommend d/lifting only occasionaly with light weights to focus on the technique, although I sometimes d/lift heavy in training when I'm training for power on the squat and when I'm close to setting some new maxes. Also, in your case, as your squat is the weaker lift, focusing on the squat should give you greater gains on your 3-lift total than focusing on the d/lift.

    As for the grip, I would train specific to your needs - Johny5 might spend more time on his grip than me, but he's probably pulling a lot more than me, in which case that would make sense. As you and I are pulling quite small weights, the emphasis on the grip would normally not be required. However, if you have some problems specific to you re: your grip, you might want to train it more than once a week. (My concern was that your training focused far too much on extraneous exercises like abs and grip and ignored the more vital muscles i.e. erector spinae, hamstrings, triceps - But if you have time to train these muscles and do thrice-weekly sessions on grip + abs, go for it.)

    So far as I know, singles are very effective at increasing max. lifts but because of the strain they put on the body, gains from them will halt after 3-4 weeks of using them constantly as your body simply can't take that kind of punishment unless you are using... As such, if you want to incorporate them, I would recommend either only using them as you come close to setting some new maxes (which is what I do) or cycling them with repped sets (3 weeks on, 3 weeks off or something similar).

    Final note: I'm just telling you what has worked well for me. My suggestions might not work great for you, but it could be worth giving them a try. I'd suggest you try incorporating some of my ideas into your training for a while and seeing what happens. If you start making good progress you can carry on with it and if you don't, then you can switch back to your old routine. Either way, tell me how it works out...
    #7
    Scourge_of_God
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/21 13:04:41 (permalink)
    It's a pity that no-one else seems to be replying to this post as we should get a whole load more ideas than I can come up with by myself... Thoughts anyone?
    #8
    Robert
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/21 18:19:49 (permalink)
    "its a pity....." agreed there mate.

    also i think i will just concentrate on the squat for now, see how it goes. thanks again dude.

    rob
    #9
    JF
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/21 22:52:16 (permalink)
    Robert, the general consensus around here is train your abs only once a week, but if they are your weak point, working them twice a week might be in order to get them to par with your body (as I,m doing now); same goes with grip. Powerlifting, from what I gather, is all about pointing out your weaknesses and making them disapear. So, my advice to you would be:
    1) Read as much as you can about powerlifting, wheter diet, rest, training ideas and philosophies, Westside in particular (results speak for themselves)
    2) Assess your weaknesses, physical, psychological or technical, and take measures to make them disapear (ie: I can't get out the hole in the squat, so I'll train on a box to work the hips and technique)
    3) Maybe try to get someone to train/coach you. If that is impossible, well go to some meets and see what it's all about and talk to some of the people there. Here in Quebec, your lifts would be decent in the Junior category and you would place well in IPF meets; competition standards are not the same everywhere, so do a bit of research.
    #10
    MikeyFive
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/21 23:10:16 (permalink)
    I agree that you really can't constantly hit 1RM's in your workouts for any prolonged period. A couple of things you could do are:
    *Include dynamic workouts (a la Westside)
    *Change the main exercises every four weeks (instead of deadlifting on day 1 do Good mornings). This helps you to stop from burning out so quickly.
    *Take a week off every 4-6 weeks.
    My personal preference would be to include dynamic workouts.

    I disagree with SOG that abs aren't as important as Spinal Erectors, they effectively act as antagonists, and so are equally important. However, I think its also just as important to have strong hip flexors to complete your core strength (do pinned sit-ups).

    Thirdly, I agree that deadlifting isn't as important as squatting, and remember that the best lift you can do to improve your deadlift is the squat. Most competitive powerlifters don't do a great deal of heavy deadlifting, they rely on squats, box squats, good mornings, hypers, pull thru's, Glute-Ham raises etc.

    Do some reading on:

    http://www.westside-barbell.com
    http://www.eliftfts.com
    http://www.metalmilitia.net

    #11
    Scourge_of_God
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/22 00:32:40 (permalink)
    Hey MikeyFive... I don't want to sound like an argumentative prick, but why don't you feel that erector spinae are more important than abs for powerlifting? Obviously they play a significant role in stability/ balance etc., but given the choice between weak abs and a weak lower back, I would take the weak abs if I wanted to squat - You would still have trouble lifting big, but you wouldn't dump the weight over the top of your head like you would if your lower back wasn't on par...

    ...or am I missing something?
    #12
    MikeyFive
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/22 00:42:59 (permalink)
    quote:
    why don't you feel that erector spinae are more important than abs for powerlifting? Obviously they play a significant role in stability/ balance etc., but given the choice between weak abs and a weak lower back, I would take the weak abs

    Well, I'd rather choose to have equally strong abs and spinal erectors, creating a more stable and strong core. I feel abs and spinal erectors are equally important because they are like 2 sides of a coin. It doesn't matter how strong your spinal erectors are, if your abs aren't up to the job then you'll still end up dumping the weight, or doing yourself some damage.
    #13
    trickyricky
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/22 00:43:29 (permalink)
    it all depends what works for you, best tip is keep the reps low for your main lifts and if your going to maximum poundages keep the sets fairly low (maybe under 6) and on lighter weeks more sets (maybe 10-15)low reps and less rest, ive always prefered eastern block routines with little/no assistance work and they have given me good solid lifts but im taking some time out and will give westside a good go and see which is most effective, here is a 12 week squat routine i followed which worked great, (% x reps x sets)
    week1
    Day 1 65%x8x3, 70%x5, 75%x2x2, 80%x1
    Day 3 65%x8x3, 70%x5, 75%x2x2, 80%x1
    Day 5 70%x5x4, 75%x3, 80%x2x2, 90%x1
    week2
    day1 70%x9x4
    day3 75%x7x5
    day5 80%x5x7
    day6 85%x3x10
    week3
    day1 70%+10kg x7x5
    day3 75%+10kg x7x5
    day5 80%+10kg x5x7
    day6 85%+10kg x3x10
    week4
    day1 70%+15kg x7x5
    day3 75%+15kg x7x5
    day5 80%+15kg x5x7
    day6 85%+15kg x3x10
    week5
    day5 work up to previous pb
    day6 try to set new pb
    week6-7
    no back squats just assistance work on weak points
    week8
    day1
    65%x3 75%x4 85%x4x3 85%x5
    day3
    60%x3 70%x3 80%x4 90%x3, 85%x5x2
    day5
    65%x4 70%x4 80%x4x5
    Week9
    day1
    60%x4 70%x4 80%x4 90%x3, 90%x4x2
    day3
    65%x3 75%x3 85%x3 90%x3x3, 95%x3
    day5
    65%x3 75%x3 85%x4 90%x5x4
    Week10
    day1
    60%x3 70%x3 80%x3 90%x5x5
    day3
    60%x3 70%x3 80%x3 95%x3x2
    day5
    65%x3 75%x3 85%x3 95%x3x4
    Week11
    day1
    70%x3 80%x4 90%x5x5
    day3
    70%x3 80%x3 95%x3x4
    day5
    75%x3 90%x4 80%x4x3
    week12
    day2
    70%x3, 80%x3, 90%x5x2, 95%x4x3
    day4
    75%x4, 85%x4x4
    day7 (comp)
    95%, 100%, 105%

    bench press would be the begining of the session and then barbell rows would finnish it off
    its just an example and very different to once a week 5x5, or westsides assistance only sort of view and only do the big 3 lifts on comp day, all these methods can work as i said before its just finding what works best for you (not necesarily what you enjoy best or what sounds nicest)
    #14
    Scourge_of_God
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/22 00:53:18 (permalink)

    MikeyFive - My example was a hypothetical, but nevermind. I was also hoping you would explain what you meant by 'antagonists'. Plz.
    quote:
    Originally posted by trickyricky

    all these methods can work as i said before its just finding what works best for you (not necesarily what you enjoy best or what sounds nicest)

    Hehe... I couldn't agree with you more trickyricky.
    #15
    trickyricky
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/22 00:54:20 (permalink)
    quote:
    I disagree with SOG that abs aren't as important as Spinal Erectors, they effectively act as antagonists, and so are equally important. However, I think its also just as important to have strong hip flexors to complete your core strength (do pinned sit-ups).


    i am sure abs do help stabilise your midsection in squats/ deadlifts but i cant see that they increase the poundages as the origin and insertion to the abs are closer together (contracted) in the bottom of the lift and as you stand which is the excertion the origin and insertion move further apart, its like saying strong biceps will increase your bench (granted biceps will stabilise the decsent (negative)but they wont increase the poundages on the way up with the weight, and since deadlifts dont realy have a negative phase in competition the stabilising abs wont play much part
    #16
    MikeyFive
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/22 00:59:02 (permalink)
    quote:
    MikeyFive - My example was a hypothetical, but nevermind. I was also hoping you would explain what you meant by 'antagonists'. Plz.

    Sorry, I meant synergists, with respect to their actions in stabilising the torso.


    #17
    Scourge_of_God
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    RE: competition lifts, and me!! 2003/11/22 01:22:35 (permalink)
    Aha - That makes more sense.

    Trickyricky has just added another point which I forgot to raise earlier - At the bottom of the squat or deadlift your torso leans forward. Your abs will support and stabilise your torso, but they won't actually help you straighten up. The result of this (provided the argument is correct) is that the erector spinae will be more important in the squat/ deadlift in an unknown quantity, depending on how far forward you lean during these lifts.
    #18
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