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do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb?

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stone14
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2006/07/15 18:10:42 (permalink)
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do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb?

do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for the natural bb since its doing 5x5 on your chest,back and legs x2 aweek instead of once per week

i am looking at option2 the two way split routine



www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler73.htm
post edited by stone14 - 2006/07/15 18:13:28

i believe with a healthy active lifestyle and some good knowledge and aas/peps use etc that you can live a longer stronger better life.

main interests: physique conditioning, bbj, muay thai.
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    JoeBAR
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/15 23:32:35 (permalink)
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    It's not too much, but it will certainly help you raise your endurance and recovery. It might be a good idea to do a 4 weeks cycle instead of the more common 8 or 12 weeks on this, and then have a week 'rest'. You'll know if you overtrain if on week 3 you still don't fully recover between sessions. twice a week ain't too bad really :)
    #2
    tokar
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/15 23:43:26 (permalink)
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    You could do those routines badly or you could do them well - if you do them well, they should be very good (and not too much).
    #3
    MrNatural
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/16 00:02:26 (permalink)
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    when the weights are starting to get heavy I would say it's to much for a naturall bb, and just not enough time for recovery
    #4
    supermick
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/16 00:09:35 (permalink)
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    nothing wrong with them, mahler generally has sound routines. Just beware of the man who reads to many self help books.
    #5
    ice_mach
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/16 10:01:18 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: MrNatural

    when the weights are starting to get heavy I would say it's to much for a naturall bb, and just not enough time for recovery


    Nonsense, you are doing much less exercises and volume then on a three day split. Check out Fazc's journal he does something pretty similar, with much more volume, and is lifting heavy as fuk weights, and is natural.
    #6
    TREBOR
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/16 10:11:59 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: MrNatural

    when the weights are starting to get heavy I would say it's to much for a naturall bb, and just not enough time for recovery


    Regardless of what routine you use wether natural or aas asssisted at some point the poundages will start to feel heavy and eventually your reps will drop,at that point drop the poundages back and slowly build back up.
    #7
    MrNatural
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/16 21:43:22 (permalink)
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    Well doing this routine and having to deal with weights I am right now I found my soreness doesn't go away until after 2-3days

    Before I came to this site For the first year of training which was last year I relied on 4-5 day splits Training with high intensity I found myself not having to recover and I'm not making any gains and I stayed at 122lbs then when I came here started frankies routine now Im 150 just doing 2 day split and following his advice on natural bodybuilders

    I don't know maybe it's just me or my gains were just a fluke following frankie's knowledge
    post edited by MrNatural - 2006/07/16 21:47:08
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    JoeBAR
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/16 21:58:24 (permalink)
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    Well, everyone is different. At 122lbs, you must have been pretty much untrained, hence the need for longer rest. I train 4 days a week on a routine that works opposite groups twice a week and have little problems with recovery. My gains ain't fantastic, but then again, I'm:
    1. Not eating enough to put on more than about 1lb a week anyway
    2. Not a teenager, nor a twenty-ager :)
    3. Not too worried about becoming the next Colleman anyway.

    I'm pretty sure you could hit a 5x5 thrice a week, eat over 3000cal/day and get to 180lbs before x-mas if you tried. As long as you're happy with your routine, I don't suppose there's any need to change though. Nor is there any need for others to change if their own routine werk for them :)
    #9
    ice_mach
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/16 22:47:51 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: MrNatural

    Well doing this routine and having to deal with weights I am right now I found my soreness doesn't go away until after 2-3days


    Its called conditioning mate, the less conditioned you are on the whole the more DOMS you'll experience, and Im sure you know that soreness isnt an indicator of growth.

    ORIGINAL: MrNatural
    Before I came to this site For the first year of training which was last year I relied on 4-5 day splits Training with high intensity I found myself not having to recover and I'm not making any gains and I stayed at 122lbs then when I came here started frankies routine now Im 150 just doing 2 day split and following his advice on natural bodybuilders


    Everyone makes the mistake of doing too much all at once, you cant have volume, frequency and intensity all at the same time, you probs were doing an unbalanced routine. The routine posted on the other hand is an excellent routine, and one of many ways to train.

    ORIGINAL: MrNatural
    I don't know maybe it's just me or my gains were just a fluke following frankie's knowledge


    No, Frankies routine is a good one. But I'm probs gonna be flamed for this but Frankie was too closed minded in his view of training when I read his stuff I got too caught up too that the only method of training was his, but I gained nothing, despite eating loads, however what I found was that frequency was something was the thing that worked best for me when I tried out this routine called ABBH by Chad Waterbury, and did all of his other routines, went from 8 stones to 13 in a year and a bit. Anyways Im rambling on, not trying to blow my own ego up, just trying to make the point to not believe that push/pull/legs is the only way to train, because as of late I've seen a few posts suggesting its the only way and that anything else will lead to overtraining etc which is incredibly wrong its one of many, read as much as you can mate and then see who is regarded as credible and absorb. Congrats on your gains too mate.
    #10
    MrNatural
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/17 01:14:37 (permalink)
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    thanks for the compliments what I meant was towards begginer cause I thought he was reffering a routine to a begginer that's why I said its to much

    I understand what you are saying, but mate isn't not good though to train with soreness and better to wait until all soreness is gone and everything else is fully recovered before you hit your next workout.

    Well unless there are people out there were no matter how hard they train natural or assisted in a day all soreness and everything else is recovered or unless an experience bodybuilder with many years in training then doing a routine like one posted isn't to much volume
    #11
    MrNatural
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/17 01:16:42 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: TREBOR


    ORIGINAL: MrNatural

    when the weights are starting to get heavy I would say it's to much for a naturall bb, and just not enough time for recovery


    Regardless of what routine you use wether natural or aas asssisted at some point the poundages will start to feel heavy and eventually your reps will drop,at that point drop the poundages back and slowly build back up.


    trebor mate I thought he was reffering to a begginer my mistake
    #12
    CoVetous
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/17 09:48:44 (permalink)
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    Its been my experience that 5x5 is very hard. Both on and off AAS. Its also a very solid routine for both. I made great gains on a simple 5x5 routine. its only now because im bored and looking for some change of pace that i decided to run a different routine. I recently started a new 12 week 5 day routine with 2 off days and cardio 3 days per week. Most of the lifts will be 3x8.

    I think the reason most people fail on a 5x5 routine is diet. If you dont eat big your not going to be able to keep up with frankies routine. Then again if you dont eat big Bodybuilding is the wrong sport for you.

    IMO no one routine is right. As you train and try new things you discover what works best for you. At the end of the day you should know your body better than anyone. I for one love the 5x5 routine for everything but bench and although im on a different routine atm, i will move back to the solid 5x5 that made me the man i am today.

    Just a noobie note
    Dont try a routine for 2-3 weeks and say it doesnt work. Hit it hard for 12 weeks or so and then make comments. I hate training new guys because they read something on the net and comment that my routine isnt good for them because they havent made gains in the first 3 weeks. lol. Stick at it, balls to the wall each training day, plenty of sleep, tons of food and lots of water then your all good.
    #13
    ice_mach
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/17 09:54:47 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: MrNatural

    thanks for the compliments what I meant was towards begginer cause I thought he was reffering a routine to a begginer that's why I said its to much


    No even for a beginner its not too much. The routine you do a total of 280 reps and the workout out you did on Monday and Tuesday you repeat those same weights on Thursday and Friday so you only have two heavy days really, the other days are added in for volume.

    ORIGINAL: MrNatural
    I understand what you are saying, but mate isn't not good though to train with soreness and better to wait until all soreness is gone and everything else is fully recovered before you hit your next workout.


    Muscular soreness and CNS recovery are different, as long as your CNS is fresh you can keep training (although this needs some planning). One of the best professors of Kinesiology, Professor Zatsiorsky Of Penn State said: 'Train as often as possible while being as fresh as possible.' Also muscular soreness goes down according to how much you accustom your body to do work, this has to be a gradual process but you should strive to do more and more work, "Manipulating the length of a session is an indirect way to manipulate the training load. Varying the latter from day to day helps to make quicker progress." Pavel puts it quite simply when he writes: "Do not freak out about training the same movement or the same body part for two or more days in a row ... The key to successful frequent training is constant variation of the loading variables: weights, reps, sets, rest periods, tempo, exercise order, exercise selection, etc."


    ORIGINAL: MrNatural
    Well unless there are people out there were no matter how hard they train natural or assisted in a day all soreness and everything else is recovered or unless an experience bodybuilder with many years in training then doing a routine like one posted isn't to much volume


    Again soreness isnt anything its all about the CNS, lets quote our old friend Pavel again "Pavel offers several training guidelines, the first of which is to train 2-7 times a week, varying the length of each workout. He declares that, if you are in the military or law enforcement or are a serious athlete "... you will be better off training daily; you will get a lot less sore. Naturally, do less than you would if you trained less frequently." "
    #14
    bunnykilla
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/17 10:11:04 (permalink)
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    Any routine needs to be adapted for the individual following it.

    I've been making some nice progress doing a couple of warmup sets and then just 2x5 work sets. Things have started to stall and the weights are beginning to feel extra heavy so I'm dropping back this week then starting again with 8 reps for a change.

    Phil
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    MrNatural
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/17 16:58:18 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: ice_mach

    Muscular soreness and CNS recovery are different, as long as your CNS is fresh you can keep training (although this needs some planning). One of the best professors of Kinesiology, Professor Zatsiorsky Of Penn State said: 'Train as often as possible while being as fresh as possible.' Also muscular soreness goes down according to how much you accustom your body to do work, this has to be a gradual process but you should strive to do more and more work, "Manipulating the length of a session is an indirect way to manipulate the training load. Varying the latter from day to day helps to make quicker progress." Pavel puts it quite simply when he writes: "Do not freak out about training the same movement or the same body part for two or more days in a row ... The key to successful frequent training is constant variation of the loading variables: weights, reps, sets, rest periods, tempo, exercise order, exercise selection, etc."

    Again soreness isnt anything its all about the CNS, lets quote our old friend Pavel again "Pavel offers several training guidelines, the first of which is to train 2-7 times a week, varying the length of each workout. He declares that, if you are in the military or law enforcement or are a serious athlete "... you will be better off training daily; you will get a lot less sore. Naturally, do less than you would if you trained less frequently." "


    mate not here to argue just wanna state what I learned and if that u think it's wrong state it as well, well that's what I was reffering when I said isn't it better to wait until soreness and everything else is gone which includes CNS.

    I do understand in general, the lower the reps and the heavier the weights, the more time you need to recover. Those lifting for brute strength need the most time to recover. Those lifting for bodybuilding need a moderate amount of time to recover. And those whose lifting requires more technical skill than brute strength, like Olympic lifters, need less time to recover. That's why some Olympic lifters will train a particular lift 2, 3, or 4 times per week.

    And towards muscle being hit more then once say deadlifting, benching and even squatting and military pressing within the week, don't you think shoulders are getting enough work that they deserve.

    #16
    ice_mach
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/17 20:18:36 (permalink)
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    Not trying to argue mate, just trying to clear a misconception just so others reading on this site dont get the idea, doing something like this is totally off bounds when its not. As for shoulders, I suppose, then again I have done in the past when hypertrophy was my sole goal up to 6 full bodies in a row for a while without feeling much fatigued or what not.
    #17
    tokar
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/17 21:54:30 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: MrNatural


    ORIGINAL: ice_mach

    Muscular soreness and CNS recovery are different, as long as your CNS is fresh you can keep training (although this needs some planning). One of the best professors of Kinesiology, Professor Zatsiorsky Of Penn State said: 'Train as often as possible while being as fresh as possible.' Also muscular soreness goes down according to how much you accustom your body to do work, this has to be a gradual process but you should strive to do more and more work, "Manipulating the length of a session is an indirect way to manipulate the training load. Varying the latter from day to day helps to make quicker progress." Pavel puts it quite simply when he writes: "Do not freak out about training the same movement or the same body part for two or more days in a row ... The key to successful frequent training is constant variation of the loading variables: weights, reps, sets, rest periods, tempo, exercise order, exercise selection, etc."

    Again soreness isnt anything its all about the CNS, lets quote our old friend Pavel again "Pavel offers several training guidelines, the first of which is to train 2-7 times a week, varying the length of each workout. He declares that, if you are in the military or law enforcement or are a serious athlete "... you will be better off training daily; you will get a lot less sore. Naturally, do less than you would if you trained less frequently." "


    mate not here to argue just wanna state what I learned and if that u think it's wrong state it as well, well that's what I was reffering when I said isn't it better to wait until soreness and everything else is gone which includes CNS.

    I do understand in general, the lower the reps and the heavier the weights, the more time you need to recover. Those lifting for brute strength need the most time to recover. Those lifting for bodybuilding need a moderate amount of time to recover. And those whose lifting requires more technical skill than brute strength, like Olympic lifters, need less time to recover. That's why some Olympic lifters will train a particular lift 2, 3, or 4 times per week.
    And towards muscle being hit more then once say deadlifting, benching and even squatting and military pressing within the week, don't you think shoulders are getting enough work that they deserve.




    I honestly don't mean to sound harsh mate, but this comment is total rubbish and shows that you don't have the faintest idea of what you're talking about.

    While it is true that Olympic lifting requires a very high level of skill, it is a myth that it requires "more skill than brute strength". There have been some great champions (Paul Anderson comes to mind - heard of him?) whose technique was extremely questionable to say the least.

    And quite apart from that, the lifts that OLers train 2-4 times a week that you are referring to are presumably the competition lifts. Well, I have news for you. There are plenty of OLers who squat 3, 4, 5 and even 6 times a week.

    It is just wrong, as you say, that "Those lifting for brute strength need the most time to recover. Those lifting for bodybuilding need a moderate amount of time to recover". A lot of BBers need a very long time to recover because they train in an utterly stupid way, going to failure on every set and thinking that a "leg session" is only a good one if they can't walk for 5 days. On the other hand, there are lots of top Russian powerlifters who train for, as you put it, "brute strength" and yet are somehow miraculously able to bench press 8 times a week!

    You also say "it's better to wait until soreness and everything else has gone which includes CNS". CNS soreness? What's that? Cumulative stress on the central nervous system is not experienced in the form of muscle soreness. They are quite different things, which is what ice_mach was trying to explain to you. To put it quite plainly: yes, you are wrong to think that you should not train a muscle if it is sore.

    The unfortunate fact is that some of these things are too subtle for the HIT mentality that has infested training theory today. For a lot of people, when their muscles are sore they shouldn't train - but that's not because their muscles are sore; it's because the workout that made them sore (surprise surprise!) was a stupid one, probably involving going to failure, forced reps, and some goon shouting "It's all you!" while rowing the bar off his bench pressing mate. Such people probably should wait until they're not sore. But that has no crossover into the world of sanity, where soreness still arises, but from, say, a 5x5 workout where every set was hard but failure wasn't reached and certainly wasn't passed and which wasn't followed by 6 other exercises.
    post edited by tokar - 2006/07/18 00:20:31
    #18
    CoVetous
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/17 21:54:37 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: MrNatural


    I do understand in general, the lower the reps and the heavier the weights, the more time you need to recover. Those lifting for brute strength need the most time to recover. Those lifting for bodybuilding need a moderate amount of time to recover. And those whose lifting requires more technical skill than brute strength, like Olympic lifters, need less time to recover. That's why some Olympic lifters will train a particular lift 2, 3, or 4 times per week.


    Living in california i have met many famous body builders. Even arnold schwarzenegger. Most of these guys are cool chaps if your built. I asked tons of questions at some competitions and they were egar to answer. One of my questions was about their routines.

    Did you know that all of these guys train 5-7 days per week and often spend five or more hours in the gym per day?
    it just so happens i had a copy of my routine in my wallet. unfortunatly the only person i could get to look at this was Melvin Anthony. He laughed a little and commented that when he first started he was following a routine like mine. Then suggested i double or tripple my efforts. I commented on overtraining and he said "do i look like i overtrain?" So anyway, thats why my new routine was born :)

    #19
    Rob1985
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    RE: do you think this 5x5 routine is too much for a natural bb? 2006/07/18 00:19:18 (permalink)
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    ORIGINAL: tokar
    ...it's because the workout that made them sore (surprise surprise!) was a stupid one, probably involving going to failure, forced reps, some goon shouting "It's all you!" while rowing the bar off his bench pressing mate.


    That made me chuckle
    #20
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