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eph and sleep

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cliff_vtr
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2005/08/02 18:19:13 (permalink)
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eph and sleep

providing I dont take caffeine within about 2hrs of bed I have no problems sleeping. However ECA even like last dose 3pm (bed at 10.30pm) and I cannot sleep. Now the actual stimulant effects have long worn off, they only usually about 3-4hrs. However I find that my quality of sleep is reduced, I dont go into such a deep sleep and I may wake up in the night for abit too. This leaves me nackered in the morning.

usual dose for me is 16 - 24mg eph, 150-200mg caffeine, usually no aspirin.

Is this normal ??

Paul
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13 Replies Related Threads

    MrBojangles
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/02 20:10:38 (permalink)
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    I'd have to say I got the same effects as you Paul.
    I would take my last dose of eph at 3 (4 at the very latest) and although I didn't feel wired in the evening, I'd wake up in the middle of the night sometimes and generally not get a deep sleep as I do now.

    I could attribute some of this to the psychological side of things, namely being on a cut which wasnt a particularly pleasant time, but I'm confident the ECA was contributing.

    I don't really have a solution and I'm sure you have considered several options such as earlier doses anyway.

    #2
    westy19
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/02 20:23:17 (permalink)
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    well i have only been taking eca for 2 days, today being the second day. yestarday i had 2 doses one at about 9am and the second about 3pm, neither had asprin, and i have to say i had the worst nights sleep i have had in ages.
    #3
    Dezw
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/02 20:34:37 (permalink)
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    Eph interferes with your sleep.

    If you want a good nights sleep eph is not for you.
    #4
    Fred M
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/02 21:05:59 (permalink)
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    You are more resistant to the caff then you are the eph. My suggestion is to just take ECa till the time you need to stop so you can sleep then make the last supplements eph free.

    I am more affected by caff so its the opposite for me.
    #5
    PartyBoy
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/02 21:36:47 (permalink)
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    Mechanistic pharmacokinetic modelling of ephedrine, norephedrine and caffeine in healthy subjects
    Authors: C. Csajka1; C. A. Haller2; N. L. Benowitz; D. Verotta

    Source: British Journal of Clinical Pharmacology, Volume 59, Number 3, March 2005, pp. 335-345(11)


    (Abstract)

    Aim:

    The combination of ephedrine and caffeine has been used in herbal products for weight loss and athletic performance-enhancement, but the pharmacokinetic profiles of these compounds have not been well characterized. This study aimed to develop a mechanistic model describing ephedrine, norephedrine, and caffeine pharmacokinetics and their interactions in healthy subjects.

    Methods :

    The pharmacokinetic model was developed based on the simultaneous modelling using plasma samples gathered from two clinical trials. The treatments consisted of single-doses of pharmaceutical caffeine and ephedrine, given alone or together, and an herbal formulation containing both caffeine and ephedrine. We used a mixed-effect statistical model and the program NONMEM to take account of intersubject variability. Results

    Three hundred and seventy-nine ephedrine, 352 norephedrine, 417 caffeine plasma concentrations and 40 ephedrine urine concentrations were obtained from 24 subjects. A one-compartment model with first-order absorption described the caffeine data. Caffeine clearance was 0.083 l min-1 (CV 38%) and decreased to 0.038 l min-1 in presence of oral contraceptive therapy, its volume of distribution was 38.6 l (CV 20%) and its absorption rate constant was 0.064 l min-1 (CV 50%). A four-compartment model described the pharmocokinetics of ephedrine and norephedrine. Ephedrine was eliminated mostly renally, with a clearance of 0.34 l min-1 (CV 11%), and a volume of distribution of 181 l (CV 19%). Nonlinearity in the conversion of ephedrine to norephedrine was observed. Different models showed that the simultaneous administration of caffeine, or the amount of caffeine in the absorption compartment, was associated with a slower rate of absorption of ephedrine. A 32% greater relative bioavailability of herbal compared with pharmaceutical ephedrine administration was observed.

    Conclusions:

    We describe a mechanistic model for ephedrine, norephedrine and caffeine pharmacokinetics and their interactions. The relative bioavailability of ephedrine differed between the herbal supplement compared with the pharmaceutical formulation. Concomitant ingestion of caffeine slowed the absorption rate of ephedrine, which is mainly related to the amount of the former in the absorption compartment. A saturable process appears to be involved in the metabolism of ephedrine to norephedrine.


    ---------------------------------------


    Caffeine absorption from the gastrointestinal tract is rapid and virtually complete about 45 minutes after ingestion. The peak plasma caffeine concentration is reached 15-120 minutes after ingestion. The half-life of caffeine in the plasma is 2.5-4.5 hours in young and elderly men.

    Ephedrine (in the absence of caffeine) has a half- life of around 4 hours.

    The above information suggests that if a EC dose were taken at 3pm, there may be more than 25% of the dosage of each still to be metabolised.

    #6
    Baywatch
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/02 22:14:46 (permalink)
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    I can take 30-60mg eph at 9-10 pm and still get to sleep at 11 without any problem!
    #7
    Stone
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/03 09:09:04 (permalink)
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    just have eph once in the day then, or at least if you take it 2 or 3 times, make sure the dose you take nearer the time you go to sleep decreases from when you take it after you wake up.

    Hazard a touch of narcissism without shame.
    There is no room for junk food in any diet whatsoever, leave the junk in the bin.
    #8
    cliff_vtr
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/03 11:30:44 (permalink)
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    didnt take it the last 2 days and slept like a log.
    #9
    samcim
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/03 12:35:09 (permalink)
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    I can take eph & caffine(no asprin) as late as 5-6pm & sleep
    #10
    windymill
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/03 12:54:54 (permalink)
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    I take my last ECA dose at lunchtime or I sleep really badly
    #11
    Fred M
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/04 05:17:01 (permalink)
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    I take my last ECA dose at 2pm
    #12
    cliff_vtr
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/04 13:04:41 (permalink)
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    cheers guys for the input
    #13
    Jax Demon
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    RE: eph and sleep 2005/08/05 20:40:34 (permalink)
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    first night on eca didnt sleep well now though i sleep very very well im on 4th day
    #14
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