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how to get big, thick and powerful- my take

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GTM
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 00:48:51 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by pusha


Sorry mate youve contradicted yourself there a machine provides a fixed plane of motion, compounds make you do the stabalisation yourself as the weight moves thru 3 dimensions, thus more fibre recuitment and more GH release.



Actually, a compound movement is any movement that uses more than one muscle to acheive the lift.. so in practice pretty much every lift is a compound movement. A bench press on a machine is a compound movement.. just like a free weight one is.. the only difference is how much effort the stabiliser muscles involved have to do. Not all compound movements are equal of course.. some involve a lot more musles than others.

GTM
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Slyblackdragon
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 00:59:07 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by GTM- "I'm not saying that doing Oly lifts are a waste of time.. because clearly they are not .. that's clear just from looking at the physiques of powerlifters etc."

Not flaming or anything, but powerlifters arent the same as olympic lifters. Good points otherwise tho
#22
Slyblackdragon
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 01:04:21 (permalink)
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No lifting is dumb if you are working toward your goal. Just from past experience I didn't put on much size from Olympic lifting. But also, I never was able to use much weight.

J5, when would you advise someone to try Oly lifting? And, if you aren't planning on going into competition, do you need all the lifts? Or could I get away with just Power Cleans.
#23
JohnOvManchester
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 02:15:59 (permalink)
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Badboy007 -

"don't worry about missing a lift" ... why not? You should lift as much as you can.

"12 sets or under." ... what? for the whole workout? no chance.

"make (leg/back) these areas ur focus, not your 'pecs' or biceps" ... You have gone from one extreme to another. You should focus on all your lifts not just two of them!!!

"no girlie machine crap" ... tell that to Mr Yates and Ronnie!!! free weights are good but don't limit your weight lifting arsenal.

#24
GoldenArrow
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 02:31:40 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnOvManchester

Badboy007 -

"don't worry about missing a lift" ... why not? You should lift as much as you can.

..and attempt to add more weight every workout, ie if you don't think you can make it, add it anyway, don't worry about missing it!

"12 sets or under." ... what? for the whole workout? no chance.

partially agreed, on frankies 5x5 that equalls 15 sets, but i was doing ok on two exercises 5x5 which is only 10 sets....so maybe under 20 is more realistic.

"make (leg/back) these areas ur focus, not your 'pecs' or biceps" ... You have gone from one extreme to another. You should focus on all your lifts not just two of them!!!

Leg-back is most of you lifts certainly....see your point though.


"no girlie machine crap" ... tell that to Mr Yates and Ronnie!!! free weights are good but don't limit your weight lifting arsenal.

Haven't seen Dorian train, but didnt see many machines in Ronnie's workout...all I can think of is hack squats, which he could have done (arguably with better results) with just a bar.

#25
GoldenArrow
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 02:34:14 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnOvManchester

Badboy007 -

"don't worry about missing a lift" ... why not? You should lift as much as you can.

..and attempt to add more weight every workout, ie if you don't think you can make it, add it anyway, don't worry about missing it!

"12 sets or under." ... what? for the whole workout? no chance.

partially agreed, on frankies 5x5 that equalls 15 sets, but i was doing ok on two exercises 5x5 which is only 10 sets....so maybe under 20 is more realistic.

"make (leg/back) these areas ur focus, not your 'pecs' or biceps" ... You have gone from one extreme to another. You should focus on all your lifts not just two of them!!!

Leg-back is most of you lifts certainly....see your point though.


"no girlie machine crap" ... tell that to Mr Yates and Ronnie!!! free weights are good but don't limit your weight lifting arsenal.

Haven't seen Dorian train, but didnt see many machines in Ronnie's workout...all I can think of is hack squats, which he could have done (arguably with better results) with just a bar.

#26
JohnOvManchester
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 05:18:49 (permalink)
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goldenarrow -
on his vid he did some rear delts? on a reverse fly sort of thing.
quote:
"Haven't seen Dorian train, but didnt see many machines in Ronnie's workout...all I can think of is hack squats, which he could have done (arguably with better results) with just a bar."

Better results is not my argument, rather the limiting of options.
Why would you want to limit what you do when there are things that could be beneficial.
Leg press, precher curl, cable rows etc are commanly used, why not use em? Just because they are not free weights is not a good reason, neither is because others might think they are girly exersizes.
Why rule anything out at all?

quote:
"..and attempt to add more weight every workout, ie if you don't think you can make it, add it anyway, don't worry about missing it!"

You still miss my point mate, you should worry about missing the rep.
You should try and do what you aim for 100%, not just think, oh I won't worry about not getting this rep.

On the reps...
if you do back/bi, chest/tri, legs/shoulder @ 3 exersise for each thats 18 sets on a fairly normal 3x6-10 routine per workout. If you were doing 5x5 it would be even more.

I know badboy007's heart was in the right place when he posted this and the general jist of his message is right, just a few details I disagree with.

#27
veganlifter
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 09:48:44 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by GTM
Actually, a compound movement is any movement that uses more than one muscle to acheive the lift.. so in practice pretty much every lift is a compound movement. A bench press on a machine is a compound movement.. just like a free weight one is.. the only difference is how much effort the stabiliser muscles involved have to do. Not all compound movements are equal of course.. some involve a lot more musles than others.



I thought compound is a multi joint, not multi muscle movement.
#28
PikeKing
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 11:08:42 (permalink)
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It is.
#29
Robert
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 11:51:20 (permalink)
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quote:
Actually, a compound movement is any movement that uses more than one muscle to acheive the lift..


actually, a compuond movement is one that incorperates two or more joints, [multijiont], like vegan and pk said.
rob
#30
rogerthedog
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 13:00:21 (permalink)
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Either way his point is still valid. A bench press on a machine IS still compound.
#31
GTM
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 14:27:07 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by pusha

Whats your point? I was referring to the involvement of stabalisers not the degree in which agonosts & antagonists are being made active.






My point is that a machine still involves the stabilisers.. just not to the same degree. For example when benching.. all of the delts are still being used.. just not to the same degree as when you have to stop the BB/DB waving around in the wind.

Essentially what I'm trying to say.. is that it is in practice impossible to isolate a muscle completely.. there will always be involvement of other muscles to any exersize.. even a machine preacher curl doesn't just use the bicep muscle to lift the weight. Using a machine doesn't stop a compound exersize being a compound exersize.

With regard to what constitutes a compound exersize.. I always thought it was to do with the fact that a group of muscles were being used as opposed to a singular one.. eg the difference between the idea behind a military press (all three delts) and front/side and lateral raises (primarily one delt). But I'm getting old and my memory is crap, so I'm probably wrong.

GTM
#32
GTM
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 14:28:29 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by Slyblackdragon

Not flaming or anything, but powerlifters arent the same as olympic lifters. Good points otherwise tho



I had a nagging feeling I was going to get picked up on that .. [:p]

GTM
#33
GTM
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/27 14:38:11 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnnyFive

I don't have a problem with people that want results, I do have a problem with people who don't have the ability to see in the long term. Lifting weights is a life long pursuit and at some point, probably not as a beginner, I would expect that investing some time in learning the Olympic lifts would be a worthwhile thing to do. It's not as if when you start learning them you are going to suddenly halve in size.


Too true.. But you can't blame people for being ignorant (not saying that you do).. if all they've ever read/seen/been exposed to is marketing hype and BS magazines then what they need is re-educating. Even then if they remain closed to suggestion.. let them be, they'll only have themselves to blame for a lack of results. I for example.. trudged on doing what I always used to do.. (not without results mind).. until I found this site.. I read about these new exersizes and so decided to give them a go.. I can only say that it has proved worthwhile for me.. as even though I can't see any physical change as such.. I'm certainly stronger in some respects than before starting them. Not something to be sniffed at for a person of my age.

quote:
I don't have a problem with people choosing not to use Olympic lifts, there are obviously other ways of developing massive traps/quads/upper back. I do have a problem with anyone calling them 'useless' or 'dumb'.



Fair point... but there is often a reason behind such statements.. either disapointment, ignorance or sheer bloody mindedness... only the latter of which deserves derision.

GTM
#34
GTM
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/28 17:18:03 (permalink)
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quote:
Originally posted by pusha

GTM are you confusing agonists antagonists with stabalisers, they are not the same thing.



Well considering that I can't find a muscular reference for "stabiliser" in the Merriam-Websters on-line medical dictionary ( http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSRNM000/331/9276.html?k=tnavx408x9276 ) I'm not sure what the distinction is.. agonist and antagonists are medical physiological terms.. AFAIK "stabiliser" is a laymans term.. for any muscle that helps to "stabilise" the movement of an exersise, as opposed to the actual muscle doing the "work". I suspect that a "stabiliser" should actually be called either an antagonist or synergist.

GTM
#35
Slyblackdragon
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2003/12/28 21:32:28 (permalink)
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I don't know exactly what the medical term would be, but I would thing that "stabilizers" would be muscles that would keep the weight moving in a straight path, rather then off to one side or the other, if that makes any sense.
#36
Rusev
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2004/01/03 18:26:17 (permalink)
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i no olympic lifting expert but i know a bit more than most i have never been interested in size or thickness yet im quite stocky and the only training i have ever done is olympic style weightlifting bw 154lbs 70k snatch 130k clean and jerk 160k bsh rec. f/sq 185k b/sq 205k
#37
Snaeke
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2004/01/04 02:27:02 (permalink)
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Using machines are not "worthless" or a "waste of time". It all comes down to what your goals are & how you wish to achieve those goals. From my experience, weight machines are excellent when it comes to isolation. However, they're not the "best" when it comes to building all out mass & strength because you end up neglecting stabilizer muscles(which will slow you down in the long run). If you want a good example, try doing as much weight as you can on a hammer shoulder machine, and then try to do the same weight with dumbells or barbells. heh, I remember I was doing 100 lbs on the hammer shoulder machine before I switched to dumbells. When I started with dumbells, I had to use 20 lb dumbells. Quite a big difference, don't u think? =p Same thing with using Leg Press machine. Try squatting the same amount of weight you do on the machine.

The whole point behind his 5x5/6x4 routine is to promote/maximize overall growth for ALL of the muscles, with minimal time & minimal exercises. The important thing to notice with his routine is you're not constantly beating the crap out of your shoulders, which is where a lot of people end up with injuries.

Magazines are always coming up with new gimmicks & sh**. Of course, most of the different routines are going to work one way or another & results will vary from person to person, but when you compare all of them, they're pretty much saying the same thing. If they all said the same thing word for word or didn't come up with a way of doing something "differently", how would they make money? =p
#38
Motherwell Student
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2010/03/04 10:44:38 (permalink)
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I am looking to find out what the advantages and disadvantages of preacher curl machine are for a university study.
 
I have established that if a person wants to build there bicep muscles one of the most beneficial exercises is the standing bicep curl. And that most body builders use free weights rather than weight machines.
 
I am looking to design a weight machine that gives the client all the benefits and range of movement of doing standing bicep curls, But in a fixed seated position that eliminates the problem of people have bad technique for example moving the body back and forth during the exercise.
 
So the person would be in a fixed position with back and chest support during exercise. I am just looking to get the opinion of body builders and anyone who is into weight lifting.
 
I am just looking for general opinions.
If the think it’s a good idea?
What are the advantages and disadvantages of current preacher curl machines?
Basically anything you want to say.
 
 
Please feel free to send me your opinion the more people I hear from the better.
#39
selector
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RE: how to get big, thick and powerful- my take 2010/03/04 12:44:16 (permalink)
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As before this is completely irellevant to the above thread, which incidentally was started in 2003....

sel

P.S. the correct term for stabilisers is actually "fixators", and this term refers to any muscle which isometrically contracts to hold a joint in position whilst others (agonists and synergists) move the resisitance through a range of motion.
#40
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