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minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat

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ihawk
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2005/07/23 16:33:34 (permalink)

minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat

have been trying to cut over the last 6 weeks or so and it is apparant that i am loosing bf, problem is i am hopefully also gaining back muscle mass that i previously had and then lost due to a longish lay off through injury(and as a result genuine progress is hard to monitor). i am also using steroids currently test enanthate and winstrol in the last 4 weeks of a 10 week cycle.

i currently weigh around 20 stone and am 6' 6" tall i guestimate my bf to have gone from as high as 30% to around 22% (+/-) now. my overall weight loss is only approximately 1 stone but i will be holding anywhere up to 1 stone of water due to the test enathate (as a guess though i would say 1/2 stone would be nearer what i will drop post cycle)

training cardio 6 times per week 45 mins combo of fast hill walking and stepping, plus 1 heavy dead lift session, 1 heavy squat session and a 1 light/moderate upperbody session (due to ongoing injury).

eating fairly clean, zero snacks/sweets ect, 7 small meals per day.

anyway hopefully that is all the info you need.

QUESTION IS (AFTER ALL OF THAT)
considering my size, current bf, excercise shedule (btw apart from excercise in the gym i am fairly inactive) fact i use steroids etc, is anyone able to give me a rough guide as to what cals/protein (carbs/fats)i can drop down to in the last 4 weeks of the cut so that i maximise fat loss but minimise chances of eating into muscular gains. i have no problem in sticking to any diet and food is not an issue for me ( ica quite happily be hungry without it effecting me to any great extent) also using eca 3 times per day.

from previous experience i know streoid users dont get alot of advice in this forum for some reason? but it would really help if someone could spare a few minutes, my nutrition knowledge is poor and i can see myself eating to little due to my ignorance on the matter. also happy to answer any additional q,s if more info is needed. thanks
#1

17 Replies Related Threads

    nickpellatt
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/23 16:41:30 (permalink)
    hmmmm lots of ppl dont have AAS usage expereince which is wht I would say we are less likely to chip in with help......rather than passing judgement on AAS usage.

    Im also kinda guessing here....for above reasons....

    But I would try the following......I say TRY cos like everything its a question of learning what works for you by trial and error.

    I would keep protein at 1.5 - 2g of DESIRED bodyweight...split throught the day with usual PWO protocols etc.

    Carbs....I would eat only fibrous carbs ie veg and fruit for pretty much all my carb intake 6 days a week.....with carbs with all meals except prob breakfast where I would use a pro fat combo

    Once a week I would then have a carb re-feed day where I would add starchy carbs like sweet potato etc to pretty much every meal.

    I wasnt using your drugs but this style of diet worked for me on a cut....and I have read similar plans in books etc I have read.

    It really is trail and error tho IMO.......the key I beleive in cutting is carb choice and then timing.....you dont need to cut em out totally but I think fibrous carbs are better for weight loss....dont be scared to take in good fats either!

    I beleive the AAS will make it easier to keep muscle on a cut........but you do also need to pay close attnetion to your protein intake and keep it high and eaten often

    like everythnig tho...its check and adjust as you go
    #2
    ihawk
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/23 17:10:41 (permalink)
    cheers for that mate, have to say though my protein isnt even that high on a bulk and i would find it very hard to eat around 500g of protein per day. take on board your carb advice (where does wholemeal bread/brown rice/pasta fit in? are they all no go 6 days per week?)

    from a callories point of view is there any point in aiming for a ceratin amount of cals each day?
    #3
    ToxicToffee
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/23 17:27:07 (permalink)
    500g of protein?
    #4
    mad_cereal_lover
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/23 17:27:19 (permalink)
    Hi ihawk mate,
    Are you doing any cardio?

    mcl
    #5
    ihawk
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/23 17:52:44 (permalink)
    Toxic,
    I would keep protein at 1.5 - 2g of DESIRED bodyweight...split throught the day with usual PWO protocols etc
    .

    would mean protein of over 500mg at 2g per day per lb of bw which is what i presume he meant??? as desired bw is around 19 stone at 15% bf for now (choice is then get back up to 21 stone at 15% bf or drop to 18 stone ish at 10/12% bf and get right into my mma desires)

    m-c-l,
    training cardio 6 times per week 45 mins combo of fast hill walking and stepping, plus 1 heavy dead lift session, 1 heavy squat session and a 1 light/moderate upperbody session (due to ongoing injury).


    #6
    mad_cereal_lover
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/23 18:02:47 (permalink)
    Sorry mate - obviously I did read well enough!

    If 2g per lb is going to be too high, I would try to aim for at least 1.5g per lb - more easily attainable. Also, monitor your weight loss, and you want to realistically be losing not much more than 2lb per week - maybe 3lbs with ECA/clen etc, however more than this and you are likely to lose muscle as well. I know this is harder to assess on cycle, which is why I tend to suggest to people who are cutting to do so off-cycle first to nail their diet.

    mcl

    ORIGINAL: ihawk

    Toxic,
    I would keep protein at 1.5 - 2g of DESIRED bodyweight...split throught the day with usual PWO protocols etc
    .

    would mean protein of over 500mg at 2g per day per lb of bw which is what i presume he meant??? as desired bw is around 19 stone at 15% bf for now (choice is then get back up to 21 stone at 15% bf or drop to 18 stone ish at 10/12% bf and get right into my mma desires)

    m-c-l,
    training cardio 6 times per week 45 mins combo of fast hill walking and stepping, plus 1 heavy dead lift session, 1 heavy squat session and a 1 light/moderate upperbody session (due to ongoing injury).




    #7
    nickpellatt
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/23 18:55:37 (permalink)
    Harder for a big boy to eat the protein - but if you wanna be a 20 stone monster you gots to eat like one......Id stand by my 1.5 - 2g per lb of desired wieght quote and thank my lucky stars I aint so big lol

    I Always say to eat to desired weight......but this of course has to be realistic BTW .... Ie a 10 stone guy should eat to be a 12 stone guy before he tries to eat like a 18 stone guy...

    Anyway............for me whilst cutting.....Starchy carbs like bread pasta etc is a no no for the majority of the time...I get my calories in by keeping protein high and eating fats..and my carbs typically come from up to a kilo of veg daily and maybe 3 - 4 pieces of fruit....

    So yes....I save the starchy stuff for the once a week re-feed.

    I dont see this as carhb dodging etc.....and if I feel weak on this at any time Id add the odd starchy carb to keep me going....but all the time I can get thru the cardio and weights, Ill put off the starchy carbs until refeed day.

    As said.trial and error really..........I read an article by skip lacour who does something very similar in terms of eating mainly veg till refeed days etc....which I found re-assuring to know someone else does similar things to me.

    Form my personal expereinces....pasta bread etc isnt conducive for my weight loss.and due to its higher calorie nature I have to eat real small portions rather than eat to appetite.....having veg allows me to fill my plate which addds colour to my meals and kinda fills me up more for less cals
    #8
    ihawk
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/23 19:15:06 (permalink)
    Harder for a big boy to eat the protein - but if you wanna be a 20 stone monster you gots to eat like one......Id stand by my 1.5 - 2g per lb of desired wieght quote and thank my lucky stars I aint so big lol


    thanks for your reply and again the carb stuff is interesting and i will incorporate it as much as possible, on the protein side of things i have never bought into the huge amounts suggested, and i also think whilst on steroids you can more efficiently utilise food/steroids. i have never consistantly eaten more than 1g per pound bw in protein and as i said before got to 21 stone at 15% bf, perhaps its just that that level of protein is ok for me only or maybe the fugures that get quoted are overstated for some reason, im not sure. i would be really interested to see any clinical research to back up the suggested levels of protein needed so any such links to research would be great. imagine the size i will be if consumeing that amount of protein really does make a big difference.

    anyone else with some additional spoon fed suggestions for me would be great, i would still like a rough minimum callorie/carbs/fats suggestion if possible (protein info has been absorbed and i will aim for 1.5 per lb and keep 1g per lb as a minimum.
    #9
    gymbabeliz
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/23 19:35:06 (permalink)
    when i diet i go down to 1.25g protein per lb bodyweight to get the cals down. Fat at around 60g per day which is almost equal to protein cals (good fats obviously) . Carbs i wouldnt recommend dropping all week , it might work for some but generally you need some carbs firstly to avoid catabolism, also to fuel your workout and replenish muscle glycogen afterwards, but also you need a certain amount of carbs to burn fat! (fat burns in the fuel of carbohydrates and all that)

    peoples carb needs vary but i would pick 1g per 1lb bodyweight as a starting point and reduce it from there whenevr you plateau. This doesnt help directly with your question about what to do in the last 4 weeks because it would depend what you had done until that point.

    If you needed to drop fat in a hurry the very low carb way i wouldnt advise doing more than 4 low carb days in a row without a higher carb day
    #10
    kinglean
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/23 22:42:43 (permalink)
    Hi mate.
    Good to see the results you have achieved so far, excellent work!!
    If you want to kick up the loss then i would consider TKD
    Targeted Ketogenic Diet basically means taking in lower than normal ammounts of carbs, but timing them so they effectively fuel your training sessions.
    EG If you have cut your carbs to 150 grams a day in an attempt to get the fat loss kicking along again, you would structure these carbs around your training. If your doing weights at 2 PM you may have 50g carbs across 3 meals before 2PM then after the weights go zero carbs for the rest of the day.
    Next day repeat and so on.
    Obviously you would need to analyze your daily routine and see how it may fit in around timing of cardio weights etc but if you like the sound of this and want a go, then post up your routine in more detail and in time form. Then we could structure your lower carb intake.
    If you keep protein high with moderate good fats, along with the increased protein usage AAS gives, then i really do think you wont loose any mass. You might loose some water weight due to dropping off more carbs, but if protein is nice and high i really do think your lean mass is safe.
    #11
    ihawk
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/24 13:37:33 (permalink)
    thanks GBL, some good info in your post which i can also incorporate into the masterplan.

    Kinglean cheers for the usefull reply as usual bro, progress has been ok and if i wasnt trying to cut to a specific date i would be happy with this gradual weightloss that i still have going on.

    i can adapt to strickt routine well and actually like your idea as it takes out alot of the guess work for me, if you could try and provide me with the bones of a plan it would be much appreciated.

    i train 6 days in a row usually and then have a clear day of rest.
    currently doing 3 cardio sessions each week (every other day)on there own usually at around 6 pm, 45 mins cardio hill walking on my running machine and stepping also ab work and stretching total time 1 hour.

    the other 3 days i do 2 gym sessions, usually start at 10.00 am 1 1/2 hours of either, heavy deads/heavy squats/light moderate body builder style upper body workout (due to injury). the dead and the squat session is with another person so my actual work time is about 45 mins over the 1 1/2 hour session, the dead and squat sessions are very intense. the upperbody session is a full 1 1/2 hour of going from excercise to excercise (also very draining). after all these sessions i will the have a break of at least 1/2 hour and have a protein shake high protein 50g low carbs low fat sometimes also a piece of fruit if i feel i need some energy (i also use eca 1/2 hour before every workout session), then i will do my cardio session after this break.

    so that is what i am currently doing, also i am thinking about adding 3 extra half hour morning cardio sessions on the non weight days, this would utilise the theory of doing the cardio on an empty stomach (apart from a little pre workout whey).

    hope thats enough detail, thanks
    #12
    wiffers
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/24 13:59:46 (permalink)
    I generally have more carbs at weekend ... basically due to a manual job and to cycle carbs intake.

    But what I am doing (similar to you, using AAS) is have 300-380g protein daily, 60g fat, and aim for around 150g carbs. I time carbs etc before weights for energy, but not before CV. I am for a 500-750kcal deficit daily. I'll make this deficit higher until I stop nticing strength gain in the gym (obviously changes daily) as I then know I am eating to little. I then up my kcal/carbs.

    I then feel I am cutting as hard as I can, but still maintaining/improving lean mass as weights.reps are increasing.

    I usually add more cardio rather than cut kcals in as it seems to be easier that way

    HTH

    Raw dead Lift 320kg
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    #13
    kinglean
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/24 20:37:36 (permalink)
    Righto mate, i hope i got your routine right here. Also how many carbs you wanting to take in a day? Ill base what i am saying on 200g, if you back this up with 300g protein and 80ish grams good fats this would give you around 2700 calories per day, at your size the fat should melt off. If it slows down you could reduce the carbs to 150, giving around 2500 cals ED

    MON - 10AM Weights straight into cardio
    TUES - Cardio on awakening also cardio at 6PM
    WED - 10AM weights straight into cardio
    THUR - Cardio on awakening also cardio at 6PM
    FRI - 10AM Weights straight into cardio
    SAT - Cardio on awakening also cardio at 6PM
    SUN - Rest day.

    Heres how i would eat around that for maximal fat loss using TKD.

    MON - Awake have whey in water, give that 20 mins to digest then have 75 grams of complex carbs plus protein and good fats. Give that 2 hours then again have 75 grams of complex carbs along with your protein and good fats. That should be around 9.30 AM. Train at 10, when weights is finished have a ripe banana and / or an energy drink of some kind to constitute the last 50 grams of your daily carb intake. After cardio all your meals will now be protein and fat based.

    TUES - Awake and have BCAA pills or glutamine in water. This will give you some amino acids into the bloodstream whilst keeping glycogen and insulin levels low, meaning big fat burning. Do your cardio then when you return, have a protein only meal. Reasoning here is that introducing fats or carbs could blunt any post workout fat burn, so the protein only meal helps keep cataboism away whilst extending the post work out fat burn. I found this worked very well for me. 1 hour after the protein meal (should be around 9AM) have 50 grams carbs with protein and good fats. Then do this again until your daily carb allowance is used up. So you would eat 50g carbs along with protein and good fats at 9, 11, 1, 3. After this protein and fats only for the rest of the day. Do your cardio at 6PM.

    WED - As Monday

    THURS - As Tuesday

    FRI - As Monday

    SAT - As Tuesday

    SUN - Eat your carb allowance as you see fit as you are not training today, however consider eating the carbs earlier in the day when you are most active, and have protein and fats later on in the day / evening.

    Some may not agree but i KNOW the fat will melt off if you try this. Comments on this plan welcome.
    Good luck
    #14
    gymbabeliz
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/24 20:39:46 (permalink)
    definitely start doing some morning cardio on empty stomach if you need things speeded up. Every morning!

    3 times a week is like maintenance cardio, not dieting cardio!!!
    #15
    ihawk
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/25 02:55:50 (permalink)
    GBL, the 3 times per week is on top of the 6 sessions i already do each week so thats 9 sessions per week in total, did you realise that.

    Kinglean, what can i say mate you have sorted me out again, i am going to dive in and give your diet a full test run over the next 4 weeks, i will transfer all the important bits onto a new sheet/meal planner and implement it.

    to clear up 2 things, are you saying dont have anything (not even whey in water before morning cardio) as i thought by not doing so i may use muscle as an energy source??

    and, when you say no carb meals after certain times off hand i can only really think of meat, any other suggestions to add to the list for some variety??


    thanks again for everyones input, and valuable help.
    #16
    kinglean
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/25 22:40:34 (permalink)
    Hi mate.

    RE the fueling for AM cardio. If you take in whey before AM cardio your body will use this for fuel as opposed to fats. Yes there will be aminos in your blood to prevent catabolism, but your first 100 calorie deficit will more than likely be the whey being burned off. For maximal fat loss the BCAAs or glutamine put some aminos into the blood to keep catabolism away whilst not constituting any calories. So any calories burned will more likely be fat using this method. Because you are cutting to a time frame i would lean towards the glutamine methods, after all its only 30 mins. The likelyhood of catabloism on 30 mins low intensity cardio on BCAAs or Glutamine is minimal IMO.

    RE the bland protein only meals. Yes its very boring and monotonos. I used different herbs and spices sprinkled on my meats to liven them up. Cajun being my favourite. Eggs can give a range of dishes, and fish can help with a bit of variety. Other than that it is a bit hard going, thats why i usually recommend this as the last big push to get the stuborn bits off because only those with serious will power can keep this up.

    Good luck mate. You WILL be lean for your hols.

    #17
    ihawk
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    RE: minimum diet/protein to maintain muscle whilst dropping fat 2005/07/26 11:49:01 (permalink)
    cheers kinglean, i have enough info there to sort out my diet made a start yesterday but need to go shopping today so i have enough protein only choices. i have glutamine alreday so can also get going on your morning cardio suggestion. thanks again
    #18
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