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overtraining question

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savageJ
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2008/05/14 10:56:59 (permalink)

overtraining question

if you go gym or do a set of muscle groups every time but for 5 days a week

like
legs
chest
arms
lats and shoulders
abs

on the days you do, shoulders, back, chest and arms
is that not 4 days of training arms as they get used on most upped body exercises anyway and is this overtraining

OR is overtraining simply doing preacher curls 5 nights a week??
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    english bull
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 13:38:50 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: savageJ

    if you go gym or do a set of muscle groups every time but for 5 days a week

    like
    legs
    chest
    arms
    lats and shoulders
    abs

    on the days you do, shoulders, back, chest and arms
    is that not 4 days of training arms as they get used on most upped body exercises anyway and is this overtraining

    OR is overtraining simply doing preacher curls 5 nights a week??



    Savage m8 is this your routine???

    I'd drop this routine like a flamming dog turd..

    Both are overtraining.

    Never forget that you are unique, just like everyone else
    #2
    savageJ
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 13:55:29 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: english bull


    ORIGINAL: savageJ

    if you go gym or do a set of muscle groups every time but for 5 days a week

    like
    legs
    chest
    arms
    lats and shoulders
    abs

    on the days you do, shoulders, back, chest and arms
    is that not 4 days of training arms as they get used on most upped body exercises anyway and is this overtraining

    OR is overtraining simply doing preacher curls 5 nights a week??



    Savage m8 is this your routine???

    I'd drop this routine like a flamming dog turd..

    Both are overtraining.


    nah mate thats not my routine
    what i was trying to say is
    when people say overtraining do they mean doing 5 days a week of which four may be upper body so thus use arms and could be overtraining the arms OR
    do they mean someone overtraining would be doing precher curls 5 nights a week
    #3
    swordfish
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 14:07:25 (permalink)
    when you aint very big and strong untill like after about 2-3 years of proper training and diet you feel it more in your bi's n tri's doing things like shoulders and lat pulldowns

    but after you get bigger i have found that they really are only a secondary muscle and arenot trained to there full at all when doing the shoulders or chest

    thats my view anyway
    #4
    english bull
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 14:10:07 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Jamesw

    when you aint very big and strong untill like after about 2-3 years of proper training and diet you feel it more in your bi's n tri's doing things like shoulders and lat pulldowns

    but after you get bigger i have found that they really are only a secondary muscle and arenot trained to there full at all when doing the shoulders or chest

    thats my view anyway



    WTF ??????????
    You on the right page jamesw???? lmao
    post edited by english bull - 2008/05/14 14:11:29

    Never forget that you are unique, just like everyone else
    #5
    Mortimer
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 14:21:27 (permalink)
    It depends from person to person Savage. But in a nut shell overtraining occurs when the volume and intensity of an individuals exercise/bodybuilding regime exceeds their recovery capacity. Obviously as stated how soon or how easy that will happen will be "person specific". For example it might be fairly safe to say that if your not a genetic elite and/or on gear that you'd end up overtraing on a routine such as a double split over 5 or 6 days of the week, of the likes Arnie used back in the day. Twice a day with each session carrying a lot of different exercises totalling many many sets with each muscle group being hit mulitple times through the week.

    Theres a few things that lead to overtraining in an individual..including but not limited to : Microtrauma to the muscles are created faster than the body can heal them,
    Amino acids are used up faster than they are supplied in the diet...his is sometimes called "protein deficiency".
    The body becomes calorie-deficient and the rate of break down of muscle tissue increases.
    Levels of cortisol (the "stress" hormone) are elevated for long periods of time.
    The body spends more time in a catabolic state than an anabolic state (perhaps as a result of elevated cortisol levels.)

    That said i DO believe theres a big over the top emphasis on overtraining. Theres a fine line to overtraining and many people will see someone doing a 3 day full body squatting 3 X Weekly and say "you'll overtrain"..that may not be the case. My advice is take it very serioulsy, but dont let it put you off experimenting...although don kick the back end out of it..i.e biceps hit 4 times a week directly etc etc.

    Remember..stimulate dont anhialate.....take a routine..implement it..then monitor and adjust accordingly.
    #6
    english bull
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 14:24:08 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: savageJ


    ORIGINAL: english bull


    ORIGINAL: savageJ

    if you go gym or do a set of muscle groups every time but for 5 days a week

    like
    legs
    chest
    arms
    lats and shoulders
    abs

    on the days you do, shoulders, back, chest and arms
    is that not 4 days of training arms as they get used on most upped body exercises anyway and is this overtraining

    OR is overtraining simply doing preacher curls 5 nights a week??



    Savage m8 is this your routine???

    I'd drop this routine like a flamming dog turd..

    Both are overtraining.


    nah mate thats not my routine: lol thank fcuk for that
    what i was trying to say is
    when people say overtraining do they mean doing 5 days a week of which four may be upper body so thus use arms and could be overtraining the arms OR
    do they mean someone overtraining would be doing precher curls 5 nights a week

    Yes mate to both... Also lack of rest/sleep.. wrong or not enough food can also contribute to overtraining.


    Never forget that you are unique, just like everyone else
    #7
    Valhalla
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 14:39:38 (permalink)
    Ill break it down as per according to my experience:

    Overtraining = Doing more training than your body is capable from recovering from.

    It is a fine balancing act in my opinion. The word "Overtraining" scares people whitless as it has been over played in magazines and web forums for the past decade! Overtraining is very real, However I do feel alot of people "Cry wolf" about it and are generally oversensitive about it.

    You have training Volume and frequency. First asnd foremost strike a balance with them. Are you doing more volume in your workouts? Then play down the ammount of times per week you train a given bodypart.. Are you doing a fairly low volume routine? If so then why not repeat it later on in the week.. Its all a balancing act.

    Im constantly pushing the ammount of training I can handle to the max and tweaking it to just stay right on the edge of my recovery abilities. Diet, Supplementation, Time and timing and of course Genetics all play thier part in your recovery ability.
    post edited by 3-style - 2008/05/14 14:40:53

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    #8
    savageJ
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 14:39:57 (permalink)
    ahhh cool thanks for the replies
    mortimer-excellent cheers
    english bull-cheers mate, thats cleared it up and i think james was saying that when you aint big doing back will use you bis which could be overtraining but when your bigger your back does most of the work so takes strain of bis and wont over train them, I think lol
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    english bull
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 14:40:03 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Mortimer

    It depends from person to person Savage. But in a nut shell overtraining occurs when the volume and intensity of an individuals exercise/bodybuilding regime exceeds their recovery capacity. Obviously as stated how soon or how easy that will happen will be "person specific". For example it might be fairly safe to say that if your not a genetic elite and/or on gear that you'd end up overtraing on a routine such as a double split over 5 or 6 days of the week, of the likes Arnie used back in the day. Twice a day with each session carrying a lot of different exercises totalling many many sets with each muscle group being hit mulitple times through the week.

    Theres a few things that lead to overtraining in an individual..including but not limited to : Microtrauma to the muscles are created faster than the body can heal them,
    Amino acids are used up faster than they are supplied in the diet...his is sometimes called "protein deficiency".
    The body becomes calorie-deficient and the rate of break down of muscle tissue increases.
    Levels of cortisol (the "stress" hormone) are elevated for long periods of time.
    The body spends more time in a catabolic state than an anabolic state (perhaps as a result of elevated cortisol levels.)

    That said i DO believe theres a big over the top emphasis on overtraining. Theres a fine line to overtraining and many people will see someone doing a 3 day full body squatting 3 X Weekly and say "you'll overtrain"..that may not be the case. My advice is take it very serioulsy, but dont let it put you off experimenting...although don kick the back end out of it..i.e biceps hit 4 times a week directly etc etc.

    Remember..stimulate dont anhialate.....take a routine..implement it..then monitor and adjust accordingly.



    Lol.... that's such a better answer than mine..... are you a doctor..??

    Never forget that you are unique, just like everyone else
    #10
    Drew Price
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 14:57:08 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: Mortimer

    It depends from person to person Savage. But in a nut shell overtraining occurs when the volume and intensity of an individuals exercise/bodybuilding regime exceeds their recovery capacity. Obviously as stated how soon or how easy that will happen will be "person specific". For example it might be fairly safe to say that if your not a genetic elite and/or on gear that you'd end up overtraing on a routine such as a double split over 5 or 6 days of the week, of the likes Arnie used back in the day. Twice a day with each session carrying a lot of different exercises totalling many many sets with each muscle group being hit mulitple times through the week.

    Theres a few things that lead to overtraining in an individual..including but not limited to : Microtrauma to the muscles are created faster than the body can heal them,
    Amino acids are used up faster than they are supplied in the diet...his is sometimes called "protein deficiency".
    The body becomes calorie-deficient and the rate of break down of muscle tissue increases.
    Levels of cortisol (the "stress" hormone) are elevated for long periods of time.
    The body spends more time in a catabolic state than an anabolic state (perhaps as a result of elevated cortisol levels.)

    That said i DO believe theres a big over the top emphasis on overtraining. Theres a fine line to overtraining and many people will see someone doing a 3 day full body squatting 3 X Weekly and say "you'll overtrain"..that may not be the case. My advice is take it very serioulsy, but dont let it put you off experimenting...although don kick the back end out of it..i.e biceps hit 4 times a week directly etc etc.

    Remember..stimulate dont anhialate.....take a routine..implement it..then monitor and adjust accordingly.



    Good reply Mortimer

    I have had people doing whole body training sessions up to 8 times a week without overtraining but as above

    volume,
    intensity,
    recovery (diet, sleep, stress, other training etc),
    exercise choice and mix, and
    inter-individual variation

    are all key here.

    Actually you may look to overtrain someone or specific bodypart(s) for a reason, but this 'managed overtraining' (called overreaching) needs to be done in a sensible fashion.
    #11
    buzzer
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 15:23:28 (permalink)
    That said i DO believe theres a big over the top emphasis on overtraining. Theres a fine line to overtraining and many people will see someone doing a 3 day full body squatting 3 X Weekly and say "you'll overtrain"..that may not be the case. My advice is take it very serioulsy, but dont let it put you off experimenting...although don kick the back end out of it..i.e biceps hit 4 times a week directly etc etc.

    Remember..stimulate dont anhialate.....take a routine..implement it..then monitor and adjust accordingly.

    agree,as long as your diet/rest is ok and your routine is sensible ie you dont go in the gym and hammer it every time,overtraining is very difficult,usually its your CNS that gets fried first but most oly-power lifters train most days but incorporate hard and easy days along with either deload wks or time of.
    #12
    savageJ
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 16:09:39 (permalink)
    ah ok so with sensible recovery time in the between work out sessions and not going till dead on every group twice a week and i should be ok.

    #13
    Mortimer
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 17:37:46 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: drewsky


    ORIGINAL: Mortimer

    It depends from person to person Savage. But in a nut shell overtraining occurs when the volume and intensity of an individuals exercise/bodybuilding regime exceeds their recovery capacity. Obviously as stated how soon or how easy that will happen will be "person specific". For example it might be fairly safe to say that if your not a genetic elite and/or on gear that you'd end up overtraing on a routine such as a double split over 5 or 6 days of the week, of the likes Arnie used back in the day. Twice a day with each session carrying a lot of different exercises totalling many many sets with each muscle group being hit mulitple times through the week.

    Theres a few things that lead to overtraining in an individual..including but not limited to : Microtrauma to the muscles are created faster than the body can heal them,
    Amino acids are used up faster than they are supplied in the diet...his is sometimes called "protein deficiency".
    The body becomes calorie-deficient and the rate of break down of muscle tissue increases.
    Levels of cortisol (the "stress" hormone) are elevated for long periods of time.
    The body spends more time in a catabolic state than an anabolic state (perhaps as a result of elevated cortisol levels.)

    That said i DO believe theres a big over the top emphasis on overtraining. Theres a fine line to overtraining and many people will see someone doing a 3 day full body squatting 3 X Weekly and say "you'll overtrain"..that may not be the case. My advice is take it very serioulsy, but dont let it put you off experimenting...although don kick the back end out of it..i.e biceps hit 4 times a week directly etc etc.

    Remember..stimulate dont anhialate.....take a routine..implement it..then monitor and adjust accordingly.



    Good reply Mortimer

    I have had people doing whole body training sessions up to 8 times a week without overtraining but as above

    volume,
    intensity,
    recovery (diet, sleep, stress, other training etc),
    exercise choice and mix, and
    inter-individual variation

    are all key here.

    Actually you may look to overtrain someone or specific bodypart(s) for a reason, but this 'managed overtraining' (called overreaching) needs to be done in a sensible fashion.


    Thanks Drew. I've overtrained int he past and made sure i didnt leave room for error second time around.

    Drew with regards to deliberate overtraining do you mean like shock micro-cycles? I've heard of people using it...have you had any experience with it yourself?? is it any good?
    #14
    Mortimer
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 17:41:38 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: savageJ

    ah ok so with sensible recovery time in the between work out sessions and not going till dead on every group twice a week and i should be ok.





    Exactly. Some people hear "overtraining" and panic and never really push themselves. IMO its about training intelligently. It may sound boring but its worth doing. I've overtrained in the past, when i first started lifting and it wasnt very pleasant...while mine was maybe extreme it extended as far as constant tiredness and yet when i finally did get to go to bed i couldnt sleep anyway, loss of appetite, low drive and i also picked up a niggling cold which wouldnt seem to shift, but being new to it and not wanting to seem like a wimp i went on an ego trip, trained through it and paid the price. And what suprises alot of people new to the iron game, i actually started to LOSE weight. My body couldnt cope with the demands i was placing on it.

    In the end i stopped lifting altogether for what must have been around a month or two i think and then started again only this time i was listening to someone elses advice, someone who knew what they were talking about and benefitted from it.

    Like i said though dont panic about it. So long as your listening to your body it'll let you know when your on the way to overtraining trust me.
    #15
    Drew Price
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 19:57:08 (permalink)
    ORIGINAL: Mortimer
    Drew with regards to deliberate overtraining do you mean like shock micro-cycles? I've heard of people using it...have you had any experience with it yourself?? is it any good?


    That's the one.

    There's two main ways to use them: muscle groups and whole body. Say if you wanted to bring up biceps a little you would maintain other training and up the volume and or frequency of biceps training for a few weeks/a month then back off. This I use with clients whne called for. The key here is length of cycle and muscle group size.

    The other way which I use much more often on myself is to overtrain everything for a couple of weeks before going on a long holiday, it means you are using more of those holiday splurge meals to power recovery. Not a big difference but it's there.

    It also makes your holiday feel like more of a holiday!
    #16
    Mortimer
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 22:51:16 (permalink)

    ORIGINAL: drewsky

    ORIGINAL: Mortimer
    Drew with regards to deliberate overtraining do you mean like shock micro-cycles? I've heard of people using it...have you had any experience with it yourself?? is it any good?


    That's the one.

    There's two main ways to use them: muscle groups and whole body. Say if you wanted to bring up biceps a little you would maintain other training and up the volume and or frequency of biceps training for a few weeks/a month then back off. This I use with clients whne called for. The key here is length of cycle and muscle group size.

    The other way which I use much more often on myself is to overtrain everything for a couple of weeks before going on a long holiday, it means you are using more of those holiday splurge meals to power recovery. Not a big difference but it's there.

    It also makes your holiday feel like more of a holiday!



    Thanks Drew...noted.

    I think ill keep that one in mind now for later in the year. I've never tried it personally but im always open to trying a new angle. Thanks again Buddy.
    #17
    mike20uk
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/14 23:21:26 (permalink)
    this guy at my gym uses this phrase all the time ..

    " theres no such thing a overtraining, just not eating enough "

    is there any truth in this at all or is this guy a cretin ?
    #18
    Drew Price
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    RE: overtraining question 2008/05/15 08:07:26 (permalink)
    No worries.

    Mike, to a certain extend he is right of course. Better nutrition supports more volume BUT this is finite, there will come a point where it's just beyond your body's capacity and ability to recover.
    #19
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