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shoulders

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kinkymisspinky
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2003/12/24 18:50:16 (permalink)
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shoulders

been training push/pull/legs since oct. not seeing much progress in my shoulders (size or strength) - i've been doing one press and laterals for side/rear delts. which would generally produce better results - doing standing military as my only shoulder exercise (my preference) or splitting off shoulders into a separate day (eg. chest/back/legs/shoulders and arms)?
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    Frankie NY
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/24 19:11:27 (permalink)
    Kinky:

    What was your bodyweight and bf% 2 months ago, and what are they now?
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    Big-Ron
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/24 20:31:01 (permalink)
    Are you doing dips? Im doing them weighted for my chest, shoulders and tri's 2x per week and its really doing wonders. Start adding the weight and the benefits are unmatched with any other exercise (only my opinion, but a very valid one
    #3
    kinkymisspinky
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/24 20:43:02 (permalink)
    don't know what my bf% is. weight is more or less the same (i allow for about 1kg flucation). about 60kg.

    do bench dips once a week. tried dipping off bars for chest once but was too crap. i keep meaning to start doing them...
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    Frankie NY
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/25 19:20:53 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by kinkymisspinky

    weight is more or less the same (i allow for about 1kg flucation). about 60kg.


    Without an increase in bodyweight it's difficult to increase your muscle mass. Therefore, I wouldn't expect your shoulders to have grown any during the past 2 months. You can increase strength without an increase in bodyweight but not muscle mass.

    As far as your routine, you could try just doing shoulder presses for a while to see how your shoulders respond. Remember they get worked pretty hard whenever you do back, chest, and even legs (squatting).

    The other thing to look at is WHEN you train shoulders. I think the best time to train them is with chest and triceps. People that train them with legs end up training them 3 times a week if they're on a classic push / pull / legs split, which can be another cause of poor growth or poor strength gains.
    #5
    kinkymisspinky
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/25 20:15:34 (permalink)
    i've been training chest/shoulders/tris since oct. my instinct is to try doing standing military as my only shoulder exercise for awhile though some guys at the gym tell me to train shoulders on their own

    medusa mentioned to me sometime ago that its difficult to put on muscle mass on low bodyfat, not that i have low bodyfat! lol. but i'm pretty careful about food intake, would like to lose some fat.
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    gymbabeliz
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/25 20:30:50 (permalink)
    my shoulders have got a lot bigger since i started doing them on a separate day.......ok according to frankies theory that shouldnt work but how else can i explain the results apart from it works for me?

    agree with frankie though that if you're restricting cals you cant grow well.
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    kinkymisspinky
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/25 21:56:04 (permalink)
    i'm afraid of overtraining shoulders as they're a small muscle group compared to back, legs etc. i remember you reading somewhere that you train rear delts on back day...?
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    Frankie NY
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/25 22:04:10 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by kinkymisspinky

    some guys at the gym tell me to train shoulders on their own


    Do those guys have huge shoulders? If they do, are they drug free? Shoulders are one of the smallest muscles. Training them on a separate day is complete overkill.

    quote:

    medusa mentioned to me sometime ago that its difficult to put on muscle mass on low bodyfat, not that i have low bodyfat! lol. but i'm pretty careful about food intake, would like to lose some fat.


    It's very hard, if not impossible, to add muscle while keeping bodyfat the same. If you want to add muscle mass, you'll probably need to increase your food intake. If maintaining a strict diet is a necessity for some reason, then increase your food intake AND increase your cardio some. Sometimes it just takes a slightly higher calorie intake to get muscle growth started. You can use the slightly higher level of cardio to keep you at close to the same bodyfat level.
    #9
    kinkymisspinky
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/26 00:06:08 (permalink)
    the guys that suggest i train shoulders separately are big all over!lol! one told me he's drug free, the other three just don't strike me as being on steroids (they've also been training for 15-25 years each).

    i'm already at the maximum amount of fat i find acceptable... over the xmas period i've gone slightly over it too! i'll try upping food and cardio whilst doing only standing military.

    thanks for your help, frankie!
    #10
    gymbabeliz
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/26 01:54:59 (permalink)
    quote:
    Originally posted by kinkymisspinky

    i'm afraid of overtraining shoulders as they're a small muscle group compared to back, legs etc. i remember you reading somewhere that you train rear delts on back day...?



    correct i train rear delts with back but i do front and medial delts on shoulders/tris day. But it's whatever you find works for you. I isolate all the 'smaller' muscles and they appear to be getting bigger.

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    kinkymisspinky
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/26 15:25:57 (permalink)
    liz - so on shoulders day do you just do press, lat raises, front lat raises and handstand press? are you finding you're recovering okay as shoulders work during back and chest too? what does your week look like?
    #12
    gymbabeliz
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/26 15:46:48 (permalink)
    This is my week

    gymnastics and/or circuit type bodyconditioning
    Legs
    chest and bis
    rest
    gymnastics and/or circuit type bodyconditioning
    back, calves
    shoulders/tris

    abs get thrown in every few days, cardio every other day at present.

    on shoulders day:

    dumbell press
    lat raises bent slightly to hit medials
    dumbell upright rows

    In theory yes my shoulders get worked several times a week because i often do a variety of presses and other things in gymnastics, rear delts with back, and yes i suppose they get worked with chest but i dont seem to have any problems with this. I used to stick shoulders in with back day but I have had a lot more growth since isolating them on a different day. They always feel fresh by the time shoulders day comes around, i find that chest works chest and back works back.....thats just me though I guess!




    #13
    gymbabeliz
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    RE: shoulders 2003/12/26 18:16:03 (permalink)
    i should add that i do suffer from times of being generally overtrained ....but only because of the additional gymnastics IMHO which i let slip on those occassions.
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