YB
BannerBanner

you CAN'T go wrong

Page: 123 > Showing page 1 of 3
Author
Robert
Pro-Member
  • Total Posts : 2464
  • Reward points: 4532
  • Joined: 2002/06/04 16:08:03
  • Location: Chester - England
  • Status: offline
2004/03/03 14:39:03 (permalink)
0

you CAN'T go wrong

this is a two day routine designed for beginners [anyone with less than 2 years serious, uninterupetd training behind them]

i would place anything from 2-4 days inbetween these workouts. your recovery and recovery rate will depend a lot your lifestyle, training history, fitness and diet, not just the time you leave between training sessions. so forget weeks, go by instinct, if you don't feel like training today because you have sore legs from footy the day before, don't train.

the exersize selection is such that you are useing soley compound movements, and the volume is low. this is so you can [but it is unnessecary in my opinion, at least for the first 12 weeks] add in your own complementary movements as and when, and if, you need them.

[you will note that there is NO direct biceps isolation work, shocking as this may be, consider that your biceps are not only a very small muscle, but are only 1/3 of the upper arms mass, and are limited in there development by the size and strength of your shoulders, triceps, forarms and whole body in general].

it is a 2 day split, which should suit everyone, and leave plenty of training time left for those who play sports, do cardio and/or have a life.

my suggestion is that you work with your current level of strength, so taking weighted chins for example, if you cannot manage wide grip chins, let alone weighted, then for now, remove them and replace them with something similar. but do not forget them, do the opposite in fact, make them a GOAL.

as mentioned above, the low volume of the outlined routine allows you to concentrate on restoring balence to your body by bringning up weak points... so you will add in one or two complimentry exersizes as well. see the end of the post for a list of things you can do to help you strengthen weakpoints and a list of alternative exersizes [not every gym/home has the same equipment and not everyone can manage the same exersizes, weighted chins being a prime example: you need to be both strong, and in the presene of a chinning bar to do them ]

the routine:

day#1
front squat [always 1st]
push press [can be 2nd or 3rd depending on goals]
weighted dips [can be 2nd or 3rd depending on goals]
abs [pick 2/3 of list below]
+1 or at very most 2 supplementary exersizes

day#2
deadlift* [always 1st]
weighted chins [wrists pronated, wide grip on bar, always 2nd]
BB row [3rd]
abs [remaining 2/3 of list below]
+1 or at very most 2 supplementary exersizes

abs list: turkish getups, side bends, hanging leg raises, weighted situps [feet pinned]

all exersizes are 3x5
*deadlifts are 10x1, not progressive singles though, pick a weight that you can do 10 sets of 1 rep without going anywhere near failure on the last set [this does NOT mean it shouldn't be hard]. increase weight steadily each week on all exersizes, 1.25-2.5kg is sensible and achiveable.

some useful exersizes that you can use to replace those in the routine, but not advantagous if not absolutely nessecary.

deadlift - goodmornings, power cleans, SLDL, back squat*
chins - any form of row, snatch or clean
push press - any standing OH press, OHsquat, handstand pressups
dips - weighted pushups, DB bench
front squat - OHsquat

*see BigAl's article on back squat form

some useful exersizes that would help bring up weak areas:

overhead squat [squat form, core strength, flexability and overhead strength] close grip bench [triceps mass/strength] barbell curls [three guesses] hammer curls/reverse grip culrs [forarm/wrist strength] farmers walk [shoulders, traps, grip, calves and general muscular endurance/conditioning] DB snatch+walk around [shoulders, grip, core] cuban press [rotators, shoulders]

anyone caring to comment/add thier thoughts/opinions is welcome. [i am not always right]

rob
#1

57 Replies Related Threads

    gazdai
    Olympian Member
    • Total Posts : 938
    • Reward points: 10608
    • Joined: 2003/04/14 20:20:45
    • Location: Swansea
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/03 15:09:42 (permalink)
    0
    I like it bro, top banana.
    #2
    Five_Magics
    Universe Member
    • Total Posts : 318
    • Reward points: 3918
    • Joined: 2003/04/07 21:53:17
    • Location: London United Kingdom
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/03 15:23:09 (permalink)
    0
    I am doing something similar at the moment. The exercises you list are good, but I would not be keen on performing them in that order.
    Maybe the back exercises should be split between the two days rather than done all on the same day? Progress on the barbell row would probably suffer heavily if always performed after deadlifts and weighted chins. I experienced this with military press when doing it after incline bench press and dips every workout.
    #3
    Robert
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2464
    • Reward points: 4532
    • Joined: 2002/06/04 16:08:03
    • Location: Chester - England
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/03 15:31:57 (permalink)
    0
    agreed, but i feel the BB row is more of a complement to deadlifting, than a "big boy exersize*" in its own right. i also feel that it is less nessecary if you are dipping than benching to make progress on the BB row priority over any other exerize in the routine, [in fact, i nearly left it out alltogether], as the planes of motion are not the same [antagonists for the bench are agonists in the BB row]. also, the lower back is going to take a fair hammering in day#1 from supportiung the trunk in squats, and again in OHpressng, so the only logical place to leave it was after chinning.
    *squat, DL, dip etc etc
    out of interest, what routine do yu follow?
    rob
    #4
    Robert
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2464
    • Reward points: 4532
    • Joined: 2002/06/04 16:08:03
    • Location: Chester - England
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/03 15:34:52 (permalink)
    0
    i forgot to mention. the set/rep scheme remember is 10x1 for DL and only 3x5 for chins+row, so there is less volume than you would typically expect from a three day split useing the same exersize selection and a 5x5 set/rep scheme. personally, i would go with DB rows, as you can use more weight per arm, and your lower back would not recive yet another pounding.
    rob
    #5
    Five_Magics
    Universe Member
    • Total Posts : 318
    • Reward points: 3918
    • Joined: 2003/04/07 21:53:17
    • Location: London United Kingdom
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/03 17:01:38 (permalink)
    0
    quote:
    Originally posted by Robert
    out of interest, what routine do yu follow?
    rob



    It looks like this:

    Day 1:
    Military Press 3x5
    Deadlift 3x5 (3x3 at the moment though)
    Dips 3x5
    Wide Grip Pull Ups 3x5

    Day 2:
    Incline Bench Press 3x5
    Back Squats 3x5
    Barbell Rows 3x5
    Close Grip chins 3x5

    I like this arrangement of exercises alot. I have military press and bench press first in each workout because they are my priority at the moment. Once I have hit my target for those two exercises, I will move them to 2nd or 3rd in the workout. The good thing about this type of routine is that the exercises need to be the same each "week." This week, for example, I did dips in both workouts and managed to increase the weight by 5kgs as opposed to only 2.5kgs! I also do an extra day that consists of calf raises, an ab exercises, and some other bits and peices that I need to improve on.
    #6
    dirtyvest
    Moderator
    • Total Posts : 53883
    • Reward points: 15023
    • Joined: 2002/04/11 22:19:49
    • Location: UK
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/03 17:05:26 (permalink)
    0
    Are the 'useful' exercises the ones also classed as 'supplementary' or did you have others in mind mate.

    Dirty
    #7
    Five_Magics
    Universe Member
    • Total Posts : 318
    • Reward points: 3918
    • Joined: 2003/04/07 21:53:17
    • Location: London United Kingdom
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/03 17:06:23 (permalink)
    0
    quote:
    Originally posted by Robert

    agreed, but i feel the BB row is more of a complement to deadlifting, than a "big boy exersize*" in its own right.
    rob



    I would disagree. Personally, i find the barbell row the toughest exercise of them all. I have neglected it in the past because I dislike it so much, and I am now suffering the consequences... Which is that my back and rowing strength are very poor.
    #8
    Robert
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2464
    • Reward points: 4532
    • Joined: 2002/06/04 16:08:03
    • Location: Chester - England
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 15:59:38 (permalink)
    0
    quote:
    Originally posted by dirtyvest

    Are the 'useful' exercises the ones also classed as 'supplementary' or did you have others in mind mate.

    Dirty



    well yes and no, they are the only ones i would deem useful additions to the routine as i feel everythng else is more than covered. that is, if you really feel you need them.

    rob
    #9
    Robert
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2464
    • Reward points: 4532
    • Joined: 2002/06/04 16:08:03
    • Location: Chester - England
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 16:05:46 (permalink)
    0
    quote:
    Originally posted by Five_Magics

    quote:
    Originally posted by Robert

    agreed, but i feel the BB row is more of a complement to deadlifting, than a "big boy exersize*" in its own right.
    rob



    I would disagree. Personally, i find the barbell row the toughest exercise of them all. I have neglected it in the past because I dislike it so much, and I am now suffering the consequences... Which is that my back and rowing strength are very poor.



    well, like i said, the volume is actually very low, i mean, you are doing 10 reps on the deadlift, and only 15 chins, and only 15 rows... so its not ike 5x5 where at the end of the workout you would have done 75 reps on a DL, chin, row setup. that, and most people manage 5x5 fine, so i think its unlikely that it would be too much.

    and, i rarely if ever row, yet my deadlift is high and my chins are also great... i don't find my rowing strength to be too poor either. rows ARE NOT as important as Deadlifts or chins, and certainly not as important as Squats, Ohpress or Dips... as such, they can be perfomed last, left out, or cycled every 4-8 weeks with chins

    so your day#2 could pan out:

    Deadlift
    chin
    hammer curls
    farmers walk

    or, deadlift
    BB row
    chins

    or, deadlift
    BB row
    hammer culrs
    farmers walk

    etc etc etc
    so if it is vitally important to you that you row, then do it... but IMO, its unessecary to split them between two days, 5x5 doesn't, and people get huge/strong off that.

    rob
    #10
    Five_Magics
    Universe Member
    • Total Posts : 318
    • Reward points: 3918
    • Joined: 2003/04/07 21:53:17
    • Location: London United Kingdom
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 17:18:38 (permalink)
    0
    quote:
    Originally posted by Robert
    rows ARE NOT as important as Deadlifts or chins, and certainly not as important as Squats, Ohpress or Dips... as such, they can be perfomed last, left out, or cycled every 4-8 weeks with chins



    Why do you rate them as less "important"? Is there any reason in particular? Many people claim barbell rows to be the best back mass builder there is... Also, this is usually the exercise people don't like to do because it is hard work. I, for one, am guilty of this. I would choose deadlifts over barbell rows any day!


    quote:
    Originally posted by Robert
    so if it is vitally important to you that you row, then do it... but IMO, its unessecary to split them between two days, 5x5 doesn't, and people get huge/strong off that.



    I didn't! Haha! 5x5 was ok but it has a number of weaknesses. I am getting much stronger on the routine I outlined earlier.
    #11
    Robert
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2464
    • Reward points: 4532
    • Joined: 2002/06/04 16:08:03
    • Location: Chester - England
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 17:32:00 (permalink)
    0
    quote:
    Originally posted by Five_Magics

    quote:
    Originally posted by Robert
    rows ARE NOT as important as Deadlifts or chins, and certainly not as important as Squats, Ohpress or Dips... as such, they can be perfomed last, left out, or cycled every 4-8 weeks with chins



    Why do you rate them as less "important"? Is there any reason in particular? Many people claim barbell rows to be the best back mass builder there is... Also, this is usually the exercise people don't like to do because it is hard work. I, for one, am guilty of this. I would choose deadlifts over barbell rows any day!


    quote:
    Originally posted by Robert
    so if it is vitally important to you that you row, then do it... but IMO, its unessecary to split them between two days, 5x5 doesn't, and people get huge/strong off that.



    I didn't! Haha! 5x5 was ok but it has a number of weaknesses. I am getting much stronger on the routine I outlined earlier.



    #1 i beleive that they are not THE mass builder for the back because [a]- you cannot row anything like what you can DL, and i can't think of a muscle used in rowing that isn't covered by DLing and chinning - for that very same reason, i would say it is there to bring up the volume, and complement the DL in the sense that any parts that are not used to maximum potential during DLing and chinning will be coverd in rowing, and [c]- there is no harder work than a heavy deadlift session, period. [opinion, but we are both guilty of that]

    #2 you DIDN'T grow off 5x5[:0] maybe the volume was too high, did you try lowering it? did you give it long enough to judge [3months at least] ahh well. i like 2 day splits better too .

    also, i like your split. much beter than idosyncratic BB routines of 3-5days and infinate volume eh?
    rob
    #12
    Robert
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2464
    • Reward points: 4532
    • Joined: 2002/06/04 16:08:03
    • Location: Chester - England
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 19:57:53 (permalink)
    0
    like what exactly? i mean, come on, what muscles aren't being used during deadlifting, chinning and a couple of other exersizes like cuban presses and say, farmers walks, not forgetting your lats are used again during benching/dipping.

    and secondly, when you make such a statement, how would YOU put the exersizes in order, rows before chins??

    lastly, at no point have i said rows are a waste of time, incase you hadn't noticed, they are included in the original routine, and, owing to the low volume overall, i belive that you would not be fatiuged to a point where by rows are no longer productive. that, and just about everyone on FNY's 5x5 [about 10-25% of this site i would wager, if they have any sense] don't seem to have a problem with doing rows after DL's and chins even though the volume is higher still, i don't see any posts [haven't looked at every single one, but the vast majority] on FNY's 5x5 thread complaining about rows getting second place!
    rob
    #13
    Five_Magics
    Universe Member
    • Total Posts : 318
    • Reward points: 3918
    • Joined: 2003/04/07 21:53:17
    • Location: London United Kingdom
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 20:38:13 (permalink)
    0
    quote:
    Originally posted by JohnnyFive
    Please outline those weaknesses for us.



    All routines have weaknesses. 5x5 is no exception! Of course, the importance of these weaknesses will depend upon the individual who follows the routine.

    Obvious criticisms of the push/pull/legs version of the 5x5 routine are that there are too many sets and there is insufficient recovery time. Also, I am not keen on doing too many exercises for each body part in the same workout. If someone did bench press and dumbbell flyes in the same workout they would be condemned on this forum, yet if they do heavy military press, bench press, and dips they are given praise!
    #14
    AUTIGER
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 1211
    • Reward points: 4655
    • Joined: 2003/03/13 06:56:21
    • Location: Nashville, TN
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 20:54:20 (permalink)
    0
    I personally like doing the rows after DL, and chins
    #15
    Five_Magics
    Universe Member
    • Total Posts : 318
    • Reward points: 3918
    • Joined: 2003/04/07 21:53:17
    • Location: London United Kingdom
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 20:55:23 (permalink)
    0
    quote:
    Originally posted by Robert
    and secondly, when you make such a statement, how would YOU put the exersizes in order, rows before chins??



    Why do they have to be on the same day? As I said earlier, all three exercises are good, but it may be more productive to split them between two full body workouts. Deadlifts and barbell rows in one, and pull ups in the other.
    #16
    Robert
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2464
    • Reward points: 4532
    • Joined: 2002/06/04 16:08:03
    • Location: Chester - England
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 21:04:39 (permalink)
    0
    i think it is fair to say that i could perhaps swap round push press and rows, if rows are a priority. but for me, and many, many others they aren't. most people have no problem rowing afetr DL and chin. i see your point mind oyu, and i also like your split, with one or wtwo exceptions i think it is great.
    rob
    #17
    Robert
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2464
    • Reward points: 4532
    • Joined: 2002/06/04 16:08:03
    • Location: Chester - England
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 21:08:14 (permalink)
    0
    5M, basically.... [as i can see our difference of opinion is going to remain a stalemate], i don't rate rows over chins+DL, you do, etc etc]
    the point of this post was to wake people up to the fact that you don't have to do 4/5/6 day splits to get a good workout! anyone can take what i have said on board and change it around somewhat to suit them... its more of a guidence post, but to be honest, i stand by my thread title. if someone was to follow this, even to the letter, i cannot see them not gaining hugely.
    rob
    #18
    Robert
    Pro-Member
    • Total Posts : 2464
    • Reward points: 4532
    • Joined: 2002/06/04 16:08:03
    • Location: Chester - England
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 21:09:06 (permalink)
    0
    quote:
    Originally posted by AUTIGER

    I personally like doing the rows after DL, and chins



    me too
    rob
    #19
    Five_Magics
    Universe Member
    • Total Posts : 318
    • Reward points: 3918
    • Joined: 2003/04/07 21:53:17
    • Location: London United Kingdom
    • Status: offline
    RE: you CAN'T go wrong 2004/03/04 22:04:53 (permalink)
    0
    quote:
    Originally posted by Robert
    most people have no problem rowing afetr DL and chin.



    They must be holding back on their deadlifts and chins then man...
    #20
    Page: 123 > Showing page 1 of 3
    Jump to:
    ©2018 All content is copyright of MuscleTalk.co.uk and its use elsewhere is prohibited.
    (posting guidelines | privacy | advertise | earnings disclaimer | contact us | supported by)
    © 2018 APG vNext Commercial Version 5.5